Backstory:
1) about 1 month or something before Penril left he wanted to read a combined porpossal and have a discussion about the not so recent anymore black orc changes. he asked me to write one, that's the best I could come up with.
2) WL and Choppa both had changes meanawhile which aren't considered in the propossal at all.
I think WL should barely play a role at all.
3) I have 0 clue if stuff is technical possible.
4) I did fly over the text today. may stuff is outdated / not an issue anymore and so on.
if so, please lock and move to declined. :>
For readability I will discuss DYG + CF! On his own and Waaaaaagh! + AA Component on his own. After that BB.
I’m not a native speaker, so my english may sucks in this long text.
I comment reading threw the whole text and not stop reading inbetween and than hopping to the comment section.
Issue (1) with DYG + CF!
DYG Issue 1: High Investment for a 3 Second Knockdown and TT dmg
you could argue cause of the CF! Component and the high Tooltip DMG the placement is justified.
If you take a look at the ability exclusively without the CF! component however, it isn’t and the CF! Component was freshly added.
Before the changes it was a valuable asset to smallscale Brawler speccs and the already underperforming 2hd spec, which now lacks burst.
So this two speccs got cut by a CC + DMG or purely DMG tool they made ocassionaly use of (before the changes to big brawlin‘, which everybody specced; was the contester to this ability)
DYG Issue 2: Forced Warbandsetups by Design
The main purpose of speccing now for DYG is the CF! Component to counter Shatter Limbs.
Shatter Limbs can be applied by one slayer. Most Warbands run two Slayers. So on 9/18 Targets potentially.
Though you need at least one Black Orc or Choppa to counter it fast per party and solid cleansing.
The Investment to run shatter limbs for your warband is on average 1x or 2x Slayer which invest 10 pts in Skavenslayer and 2 player slots of a 24 player grp.
The Investment to counter the debuff is to run 4 forced classes which have specced also 10 for Choppas original Chop Faster! or Black Orcs which invested 14 pts in Da Toughest and specced for DYG in an optimal enviroment and a deticated cleanser of the debuff.
With Choppa waiting for a rework in there AoE tree, most choppas are forced in warbands to run either a 2hd spec for debuff reasons and burst or a dualwield specc for pure DPS issues, and are mostly brought to warbands to kill a highpriority target (leader, key DPS etc.), Black Orcs have a solid standing in the „meta“.
In a more competitve enviroment however, you can’t sacrifice a DPS slot for a whole party just to counter a single debuff. Since Choppas have lost there Sorc synergy, it’s on the BOs responisibility mostly.
DYG Issue 3: only accesible by the „renown elite, while not being desired in smallscale"
The rearrangement of DYG made the ability pretty much unaccassible unless you are really high renown.
Example speccs:
lackluster specc without NIDF nor Arm Breaka
While Arm Breaka not being an essential tool it’s nice to cover debuffs under it.
NIDF is however an essential tool for smallscale, it’s a pressure tool you need vs healers, even in a group enviroment.
As you can see, the placement of DYG IF you want to pick it up isn’t achievable for low renown black orcs, nor is it worth the tradeoff in a majority of cases.
Warband Specc with leftover Point for CHM or BB @RR60 speccable
This is pretty much, „our“ default bombing spec.
As you can see you need at least renown rank 60 for this.
In terms of recruiting up and coming talented players, this leaves guilds also crippled in the recruitment options IF they want to run optimized setup. We decided to invest in talent and ppl who are willing to learn which forces us to use players with access to inferior specs.
With limited playerpool overall, this is another hurdle to overcome, population can ofc change, but renown doesn't grow on trees, especially not RR60+ and up for a "working" RvR spec without impairments.
here as a comparision the "inferior" version we recommend for warband use:
why so low renown?
DYG Issue 4: Reliability issues or „how to get CF! up?
This question popped up in this Thread.
At the moment this is the sad truth.
Combine this with a natural low str value of a tank and every up front attack which has a considered "tideturning" effect like CF! in this particular case is a gamble.
So the most valid „workaround“ in the way the ability is designed is to target, turrets, white lion pets or natural low parry targets like BWs (which in fact HAVE ALREADY parried me successful)
If you party is under pressure and you see that SL is up and nothing is in reach to actually make CF! reliable is a really poor feeling.
Targeting an enemy frontliner, which is MDPS with a high WS rating or Tanks with natural high parry and or block, is a gamble.
Pushing into enemy bomb, just to trigger CF! is a wild mix of suicide and may cause range issues with CF! itself (100 range limitation)
Countering SLs Shatter Limbs already creates pressure when being applied cause you are responsible to avoid a cooldown extension.
DYG Issue 5: CF!s (lack of) synergy
Before the changes to chop fasta! There was a realm internal synergy in AoE warbands between choppa and sorc.
This is now gone. The fear in the balance department was most probably that BO + Choppa + Sorc + Sorc + 2x Healer could be a thing.
Reasons why this is not the case:
1) Changes to avoid mechanics / combat formulas hurt RPDS damage output, according to the voices in the forum. I have no proof for this besides the forums threads by RDPS players. So I can’t fullfill here the burden of proof since that’s a RDPS / caster issue. I don’t even have a sufficient toon for stating yes or no. Doesn't mean that RDPS is in general underperforming, but in general that Destros Bomb is underperforming, cause synergy nerf, formula nerf, SH morale 2 gone, and MDPS being harder to utilize proper.
2) Choppa is out of the meta with BO getting CF! Choppa is the bottom end in terms of bomb DPS (this has also obviously excluded from the discussion)
3) In a competitve enviroment this wouldn’t work because you want a chosen for the grp.
A Chosen is by nature the better „Guardbot“, you could run a BO, but this would make it a even more „high risk, high reward setup“
4) Even with a other structured Setup, like:
Chosen, Choppa, Sorc, Sorc, 2x Healer it would be a high risk, high reward setup in terms of bombing, cause both sorcs have to get by without a guard. Lifting Guard from a Choppa in an AOE fight, is most likely a deathsentence for the choppa.
The skill excluded by the CF! changes (as a reminder (source):
Otherwise, CF! doesn’t impact much of other skills which have a reasonable performance increase.Abilities unaffected by this cooldown reduction effect are as follows:
- Rending Blade
- Da Waaagh! Is Coming
- Shades of Death
- Infernal Wave is affected but will not be reduced to less than 5s if using the tactic Neverending Agony
The most „threatening“ would be Marauders „Wrecking Ball“ probably, which is not included in the list. (Goes down from 13sec -> 8 sec).
seems like it was nerfed hidden at some point / is atm disabled. needs to be retested again if it's CF! still doesn't apply to WB. last time we checked, nerf still in place.
However, the Quintessences is, that this was overall just a nerf to Destructions realminternal synergy for bombing warbands. Many players preferred the old synergy over the new.
Conclusio:
The main uses of nowadays CF! is:
Countering SL
Getting faster Dispels of the healers / lowering ther CD from 4 to 0 sec.
This is even for a tank tier 3 ability underwhelming.
Combine this with the effort to run a CF! in every party and 1x SL to create the need for it.
Besides that, it only effects 2x skills from sorc, from which is IW the only real thread.
Rewarding good coordination with a DPS increase is imo: good game design.
Solution 1: „the rework of the rework
“ Toughest Old Tree:
Toughest New Tree:
It’s a rearrangement of all path skills.
These path skills will need changes.
Chop Faster! gets removed from Down Ya Go!
Chop Faster! gets bound to Ya Missed Me!
Can’t hit Me, from many ppl considered an underwhelming ability gets moved to the lowest tier. (6pts Ability, avaible with level 21)
Down Ya Go! Moves to the Tier 2 Ability, as mentioned, it loses Chop Faster and is a 3 second skillable knockdown.
Ya Missed Me! Moves to the Tier 3 Ability, the Chop Faster buff! Gets bound to this ability.
It stays undefendable with all it’s effects. It’s now basically a well designed Slayer SL Hard Counter which still requires warbands to field the same amount of Black Orcs (and choppas) to counter it properly.
Spoiler:
The „blacklisted skills“ get removed from the blacklist to restore internal realm bombing capabilites.
Problem which occurs: „Looping“ Black Orcs Chop Faster! with Choppas Chop Faster!
Solution 1a: „for looping“
After CF! is used grant a debuff to all characters that were affected by CF:
„Chopped already really fast“.
„This character can’t get affected by „Chop Fasta!“ Duration 10 seconds.“
Imo the elegant solution.
Solution 1b: „for looping“
Seperate Choppers CF! from BOs CF! which creates 2 seperate skills.
They don’t stack. BOs CF! stays the way it is, Choppas CF! gets a roll back to old CF!.
Solution 1c: „CF itself“
remove BOs CF. Give Choppa the old CF! and it's synergies. imo probably the best solution.
Issue (2) Waaaaaagh! + AA Component
Issue 2a: Waaaaaaagh! Underperforming without icing on the cake
This point is highly discussable.
In my very own perception the spell is fine for the moment.
With higher gear it may change, and needs a rediscussion. Otherwise it has decent synergy with Lortie,.. (sorry idk any other active DPS Zealots remaining) I mean DPS Zealot, and some minor synergy with sorc , while having an ok synergy with black orc on his own.
What you lose in Skull Thumper you get in by the resistance debuff which is easily spread and not underperforming (at least in my opinion).
However, Devs decided that there has to be an additional incentive on investing in Boss Tree.
You could however argue that the whole tree in itself is underperforming (bad tactics, yikes abilites (bad scaling shield with melee requirement, not stacking armor buff, if armor potions are used, core skills are some fan favourites like "Da Big Un, which is not useless overall in it's current form, but very bad) and that the reward is Waaaaagh is itself. Maybe that's why Icing on the Cake.
Issue 2b: the party buff aka. Red Frenzy aka 20% AA haste
Understanding the philosophy of the skilltree:
Boss, where Waaaaaagh! and it's sidecomponent "Red Frenzy" Is currently placed is a skilltree centered around AoE and AoE support.
When do you use this skilltree? When do you want to spec it?
Warbands which are in need of support and a solid tank.
Does AA haste have a roll in warband play?
From my point of view it’s: Not really. Most dmg is ability dmg overall, not white hits.
Also, for max effiency you use this in a melee train.
Melee trains consist in a destro warband of:
a) Marauder + Marauder (for bombing / draining)
Or a ST asisst train consisting of:
b) Marauder + Witch Elf
c) Marauder + Choppa
In an optimial setup.
In those circumstances however your are more „supportive“ with an overall specced Brawler tree, which provides NIDF and minor (still low str values) asisst dmg with THC and skullthumper to help „snipe“ targets.
So overall, an AA buff to warband gameplay is missing the „point“ of the icing on the cake since there are better alternatives.
Can the spec / the investment to Waaaaaagh! Be a solid investment in smallscale PvP?
Imo: no.
BOs are far better off with providing asisst dmg while being resonable tanky.
Waaaaagh! Will in this case neither provide reasonable dmg or pressure by it’s dmg or by it’s utility since the spec will make you sacrifice your own dmg, pressure and maybe debuffs to cover more important debuffs.
The tools for this are found in Brawler, not Boss tree.
Approach to a Solution done with Red Frenzy
The Approach is valid. Granting a buff with a short duration for your group.
The buff however itself is simply underperforming in the given scenario were the spec performs / needs to perform.
Like I mentioned above you skill / spec atm Boss most likely like this:
Boss spec
A value point can go into CHM, YMM or the nerfed version of BB.
Solution 2: „Replacing the AA granted by Red Frenzy with another effect“
Solution 2a
Everyone that is in your group that is within 100 feet of you is filled with „Da Waaaaagh!“. The next ability has a 25% chance to deal 100 Corporeal DMG. Lasts 5 seconds.
Solution 2b
Remove "Red Frenzy" from the game, and push CF! synergy.
I feel anyway more "forced" to make "pro" arguments for this buff, when I infact think it's not necessary.
what is in fact necessary is to get CF! synergies going again.
BOs debuffs - 359 corpresistance with a 13 pts investment in the boss tree.
(values for corp debuff by Chosen on enemy players)
0 pts in discord = -118
13 pts in discord = - 179
15 pts in discord = -188
That alone is actually enough to make it feel okayish and self sufficient.
Solution 2c
Come up with a solution in the comments.
Issue 3: Big Brawlin
Issue 3a: state of big brawling: overnerfed and now underused? + Identifying issues before the changes
Common consense was that those are the issues with Big Brawlin:Black Orc
Source
Path of Da' Boss
- Big Brawlin' Tactic now adds a 10s CD to Big Swing when slotted giving the disorient and snare effect a 50% uptime
- Rock 'Ard now places the absorb component on groupmates within 80ft
- WAAAAAAAGH! now places the buff Red Frenzy on groupmates within 30ft granting an Autoattack speed increase of 20% for 5s
- 100% snare uptime
- Non cleansable
- Low hanging fruit (sitting in boss tree as 2nd tactic with a 8 pts investment which also buffs the tooltip dmg off: SYF, the ability Big Swing itself, and the WS and tooltip value of FML)
- Easy to use / lowskill requirement to be overperformingly efficient
A huge indicator therefore was that is was picked up in almost every spec, with 2hd being the only exception to that. (DYG with old placement in the tree).
Result: overperforming.
Implemented Solution:
Lower uptime by adding CD to the skill when the tactic is slotted.
Uptime is now: 75%
Duration = 7.5 seconds
Cooldown = 10 seconds.
However:
The tactic itself is now considered by a lot of players useless.
Why?
Black Orc needs for performing it’s role and rotation a working cycle and plan mechanic.
Big Swing, the skill itself, fullfilles 5 usages:
- Guranteeing a solid and fluid plan management (changing the plan without relying on a melee target or the skill „Changin da Plan“, while being one of the most used fillers
- Source of AoE statsteal and for the party as a sideeffect
- Keeping minor pressure up
- Adding cover up debuffs to the target on a good uptime
- Providing with the tactic, soft CC
While the last 3 points are neglectable, the first and second isn’t.
The plan management becomes with the CD a mess, especially without specced DYG.
Add a CD increaser from an enemy and Big Swing is completly out of order.
Note: I have spared myself the process of making a „proof“ video of how messy the rotations become. If wished so, this can be delivered.
Resumee:
The cooldown added a lot of unncessary clunkiness to the class, which makes the use of the tactic akward. You basically cripple yourself for gaining some utility and than again losing stat steal potential.
Solution 3a: Removing the CD, while also lowering the Snare duration itself
If you remove the CD again from Big Swing, it’s on a virtual cooldown by class design.
BO has 3 plans. GCD is on an optimal rotation 1,2 seconds. So, reapplying the complete ability takes 2,4 seconds if I’m correct. Means for a partial uptime you could set the duration of Big Brawlin to as an example 1.8 seconds. This would also leave the disrupt component for a majority of cases intact.
There are also cases, which break your "planadvancement" like shatter enchantment, taunt, challenge, root etc.
So even the on paper uptime isn't even granted as soon as you are forced to use abilites which aren't advancing your plan system OR if you are forced to AOE punt as an example.
A benefit of this would be that you also can’t perma snare, you have to decide if you want to use „Trip Em Up“ to snare 2x targets for a 100% uptime or up to 9 targets with a worse uptime, but the debuff itself is uncleansable, and it adds disorient.
If my math is incorrect, feel free to correct me.
I may would opt for a 50% uptime in terms of balance. this can be discussed.
I simply don't know how odd and strange numbers as an example can be implemented.
The most important point is, the CD needs to go to make the tactic at least non clunky in gameplay and that you don't get stuck in plan / skill rotations and black orc feels fluid again, even with the tactic slotted.
