[Mara] Deadly Clutch

[Toldavf]

We did run a mara and Bg in our promenades just as a point. The Bg adds so much more then just wounds and armour debuff.

[Arteker616]

Mara debuffs making other class (in this case, BG) skills redundant or useless is a valid argument. That is the reason why there was a discussion on, for example, armor pots (making most armor buffs in the game useless). Same with Chosen/KotBS auras making several skills from other classes redundant/useless.

the problem is by that logic , choppas in live lost their armour debuff . in order to ensure marauder was more viable along other mdps . the main reason they upgraded marauder debuff line and removed it from others (choppa armour block debuff).

if we going to judge marauder debuff line lets be proper and judge him for his peers the mdps and how the changes affect his relationship with them . the tank abilitys wich are similar should be judged by tank vs tank debate wich was the changes made to chosen and ktbo in order to balance tank roles .

because lets nor forget marauder is a mdps , and bg is a tank. both are different characters with different roles and purpose in organized groups .because lets not forget marauder isnt mandatory choice when it comes to be part of the mdps line, infact without his core abilitys marauder become a dead weight class with no dps utility to compete with choppa or we or dok dps at all. in most cases any group running a WE as main dps doesnt even need of the marauder at all to perform very well.

[Penril]

We did run a mara and Bg in our promenades just as a point. The Bg adds so much more then just wounds and armour debuff.

For the record, i am not saying he doesn't. I was just pointing out that a class covering most of another one's buffs/debuffs is a valid argument. And it is up to you guys to prove if this is the case with Mara/BG.

[GodlessCrom]

Mara debuffs making other class (in this case, BG) skills redundant or useless is a valid argument. That is the reason why there was a discussion on, for example, armor pots (making most armor buffs in the game useless). Same with Chosen/KotBS auras making several skills from other classes redundant/useless.

the problem is by that logic , choppas in live lost their armour debuff . in order to ensure marauder was more viable along other mdps . the main reason they upgraded marauder debuff line and removed it from others (choppa armour block debuff).

if we going to judge marauder debuff line lets be proper and judge him for his peers the mdps and how the changes affect his relationship with them . the tank abilitys wich are similar should be judged by tank vs tank debate wich was the changes made to chosen and ktbo in order to balance tank roles .

because lets nor forget marauder is a mdps , and bg is a tank. both are different characters with different roles and purpose in organized groups .because lets not forget marauder isnt mandatory choice when it comes to be part of the mdps line, infact without his core abilitys marauder become a dead weight class with no dps utility to compete with choppa or we or dok dps at all. in most cases any group running a WE as main dps doesnt even need of the marauder at all to perform very well.

Okay, except if part of the reason you take a tank are the debuffs they give, and those debuffs are ST debuffs covered by a different melee class, then that does impact the tank, especially if other tanks give out aoe buffs that also overlap yours (chosen) or are tanky/deal far more burst damage (black orc).

I'm not saying nerf mara debuffs into the ground. But they get the best armor, wounds, and heal debuff in the game. They are one of the most viable melee dps, both as group and solo. Even if, say the armor debuff values or wounds debuff values were swapped with bg, you would still use both of those abilities because they have high tooltip dmg.

Also, to my knowledge, it's the opposite of what you said regarding witch elf v. Mara. Maras make witch elves less desirable in group play, not the other way around.

I do play destro less than order though, so my info may be out of date regarding desired group comp.

[Toldavf]

We did run a mara and Bg in our promenades just as a point. The Bg adds so much more then just wounds and armour debuff.

For the record, i am not saying he doesn't. I was just pointing out that a class covering most of another one's buffs/debuffs is a valid argument. And it is up to you guys to prove if this is the case with Mara/BG.

Allot of classes have over lapping stuff and indeed having some kind of redundancy is useful at times especially if the debuff types are mixed. My opinion is that just because the mara out shines with 2 debuffs that doesn't make the BG unviable. Crimson death is a very welcome debuff as is the bg turbo punt and their none 2handed anguish spec is just as good with choking fury reducing at least one enemy to a negligible level of dps. No action points no fun.

[Arteker616]

Mara debuffs making other class (in this case, BG) skills redundant or useless is a valid argument. That is the reason why there was a discussion on, for example, armor pots (making most armor buffs in the game useless). Same with Chosen/KotBS auras making several skills from other classes redundant/useless.

the problem is by that logic , choppas in live lost their armour debuff . in order to ensure marauder was more viable along other mdps . the main reason they upgraded marauder debuff line and removed it from others (choppa armour block debuff).

if we going to judge marauder debuff line lets be proper and judge him for his peers the mdps and how the changes affect his relationship with them . the tank abilitys wich are similar should be judged by tank vs tank debate wich was the changes made to chosen and ktbo in order to balance tank roles .

because lets nor forget marauder is a mdps , and bg is a tank. both are different characters with different roles and purpose in organized groups .because lets not forget marauder isnt mandatory choice when it comes to be part of the mdps line, infact without his core abilitys marauder become a dead weight class with no dps utility to compete with choppa or we or dok dps at all. in most cases any group running a WE as main dps doesnt even need of the marauder at all to perform very well.

Okay, except if part of the reason you take a tank are the debuffs they give, and those debuffs are ST debuffs covered by a different melee class, then that does impact the tank, especially if other tanks give out aoe buffs that also overlap yours (chosen) or are tanky/deal far more burst damage (black orc).

I'm not saying nerf mara debuffs into the ground. But they get the best armor, wounds, and heal debuff in the game. They are one of the most viable melee dps, both as group and solo. Even if, say the armor debuff values or wounds debuff values were swapped with bg, you would still use both of those abilities because they have high tooltip dmg.

Also, to my knowledge, it's the opposite of what you said regarding witch elf v. Mara. Maras make witch elves less desirable in group play, not the other way around.

I do play destro less than order though, so my info may be out of date regarding desired group comp.

mara lags behind dok dps - choppa- we . the difference is we doesnt need the debuffs from either bg or mara on his own while choppa and dok dps dps is even ehanced by mara to much bigger degree , its a symbiosis in most cases sinde mara debuff benefit choppa even more , but choppa pure sheer dmg or burst from 2hs enable mara to even more dmg due to how fast mara can acces to guillotine in a target due to other mdps. mara after all still a mdps and thus he is useles without a guard and proper tanking , wich bg bo or chosen can provide very well to him . handicapping mara debuffs would lead to him to be replaced easily by other mdps . thus u would be murdering the mara in favour of a tank and not changing much how mdps roll around (just disabling em from the benefeit of the mara debuff line).

gimp mara debuffs and u have a mdps class wich can dish dmg but excell at nothing the very same stuff bg players claim.

aswell u really saying mara is good at solo? any mdps can be butchered by any caster class or many of the kiting class u got in game . u cannot realy base a opinion in the asumption of what will happen when a character is playing solo because u never know what u gonna find.

[Arteker616]

We did run a mara and Bg in our promenades just as a point. The Bg adds so much more then just wounds and armour debuff.

For the record, i am not saying he doesn't. I was just pointing out that a class covering most of another one's buffs/debuffs is a valid argument. And it is up to you guys to prove if this is the case with Mara/BG.

Allot of classes have over lapping stuff and indeed having some kind of redundancy is useful at times especially if the debuff types are mixed. My opinion is that just because the mara out shines with 2 debuffs that doesn't make the BG unviable. Crimson death is a very welcome debuff as is the bg turbo punt and their none 2handed anguish spec is just as good with choking fury reducing at least one enemy to a negligible level of dps. No action points no fun.

the very same can be said about bo .bo is considered the best tank dps but bg is way more durable tanking and atleast provide buffs debuffs wich hamper te enemy team . since most bo armour buffing is useles due to pot or other classes armour procs buffs.

[TenTonHammer]

so you clearly admit u just doing it in order to push ur agenda towards BG.

it was a joke

Allot of classes have over lapping stuff and indeed having some kind of redundancy is useful at times especially if the debuff types are mixed. My opinion is that just because the mara out shines with 2 debuffs that doesn't make the BG unviable. Crimson death is a very welcome debuff as is the bg turbo punt and their none 2handed anguish spec is just as good with choking fury reducing at least one enemy to a negligible level of dps. No action points no fun.

BG is an inherently selfish tank that provides very little utility

Tough debuff, armor debuff, wounds debuff, core super punt, 5s KD, WoS, WP buff, and outgoing HD

thats mainly the stuff that BG has going for it

Until balance is changed otherwise you will never not take 1 chosen and mara

mara alone makes tough, armor and wounds debuffs redundant

2H BG, first of all only works in niche specs where your assisting a melee train, its a 2H tank....it suffers from the same pitfalls that running any 2H tank bar SM does to a party mainly that being the loss of utility, surviveablity and one of BG's biggest selling points which is the KD additionally if your spamming out CD and whatnot you cannot use the class and its abilites to its full potential because your not storing hate

also you dont have morale pump which is still pretty huge and lose out on it by not running CHxBO

while choking fury is nice the ability only really shines once you pair it with draining swipes

but then you have BG x Mara....

the very same can be said about bo .bo is considered the best tank dps but bg is way more durable tanking and atleast provide buffs debuffs wich hamper te enemy team . since most bo armour buffing is useles due to pot or other classes armour procs buffs.

BG provides str, tough and WP buffs, chosen aura renders the first 2 insignificant, and BO stat steal can buff/debuff every stat bar wounds and can trigger it a lot thanks to Big brawlins unclenseable snare spam

Also BO too is very tanky due to block tactics and racial HP tactics additionally because of morale pump a BO+CH can keep distracting bellow/ID up to make their whole party more durable

[Arteker616]

Allot of classes have over lapping stuff and indeed having some kind of redundancy is useful at times especially if the debuff types are mixed. My opinion is that just because the mara out shines with 2 debuffs that doesn't make the BG unviable. Crimson death is a very welcome debuff as is the bg turbo punt and their none 2handed anguish spec is just as good with choking fury reducing at least one enemy to a negligible level of dps. No action points no fun.

BG is an inherently selfish tank that provides very little utility

Tough debuff, armor debuff, wounds debuff, core super punt, 5s KD, WoS, WP buff, and outgoing HD

thats mainly the stuff that BG has going for it

Until balance is changed otherwise you will never not take 1 chosen and mara

mara alone makes tough, armor and wounds debuffs redundant

2H BG, first of all only works in niche specs where your assisting a melee train, its a 2H tank....it suffers from the same pitfalls that running any 2H tank bar SM does to a party mainly that being the loss of utility, surviveablity and one of BG's biggest selling points which is the KD additionally if your spamming out CD and whatnot you cannot use the class and its abilites to its full potential because your not storing hate

also you dont have morale pump which is still pretty huge and lose out on it by not running CHxBO

while choking fury is nice the ability only really shines once you pair it with draining swipes

but then you have BG x Mara....

u forgot to say 10% critic aoe increaser,aoe snare, massive ap drainer agaisnt mdps or healers,int and willpoer debuff, block and parry aoe debuff, critic debuff,
2hs tanks in general are bad for everyone not just bg , if u running a mele train with 2hs tanks in destru u will just fail because order massive adventage in rpds , or when u try to fight in orvr a kiting group.

the best way to get hate is to be in a group with a mdps and for morale pumpers u need them aswell, since they are prime targets .

[Arteker616]

the very same can be said about bo .bo is considered the best tank dps but bg is way more durable tanking and atleast provide buffs debuffs wich hamper te enemy team . since most bo armour buffing is useles due to pot or other classes armour procs buffs.

BG provides str, tough and WP buffs, chosen aura renders the first 2 insignificant, and BO stat steal can buff/debuff every stat bar wounds and can trigger it a lot thanks to Big brawlins unclenseable snare spam

Also BO too is very tanky due to block tactics and racial HP tactics additionally because of morale pump a BO+CH can keep distracting bellow/ID up to make their whole party more durable[/quote]
u forgot in the mix bo has the highest chance to be criticed in game(even superior to own mara ) the problem still as bo u need a shield and a mdps or partner to achieve something with morale pumper. and the problem with the bellow switch is very simple u will be drain of aps in less than 10 secs veen using bo own ap rege ability .