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[Eng/Magus] Sticky Bombs / Seed of Chaos

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
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porkstar
Posts: 721

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#11 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:46 pm

megadeath wrote:
Glorian wrote: it is also not worth a place in the Grenadier rotation.
Please elaborate. Seed of chaos fits magus rotation pretty well.
In my experience, the most useful grenadier build/rotation for ST dps includes Signal Flare with the tactic Coordinated Fire which increase all damage taken by a target by 15% (if you actually plan on killing somebody). For this to be effective, Signal Flare needs to be buried underneath 2-3 dots. In this way Sticky Bomb is useful as a cleanse buffer. The rotation is as follows; Acid Bomb, Incendiary Rounds, Sticky Bomb, Signal Flare, Acid Bomb (its probably cleansed by now so re-apply), now spam Fire Bomb. That's 5s within engagement range of all enemy DPS (80ft with Throwing Arm) before starting your main DPS pressure of Firebomb. Acid bomb is first because it lasts the longest, no cool down, instant cast, easiest to re-apply. After two cleanses, Sticky Bomb, Signal Flare and Acid Bomb remains active. This rotation basically relegates Acid Bomb and Incendiary Rounds as your cleanse buffers and forces two casts of Acid Bomb to keep the necessary corp debuff.

I rescind my previous suggestion and propose that Sticky Bomb has a 50% chance to re-apply after cleanse/run its course. This would allow a rotation as follows: Sticky Bomb, Incendiary Rounds, Acid Bomb, Signal Flare, spam Firebomb. If Sticky Bomb is cleansed there is a chance to re-apply. Best case scenario, Acid bomb, Signal Flare, Sticky Bomb remains active after two cleanses and saves 1 second of cast time by the grenade engie. Worst case scenario, only Signal Flare and Acid Bomb remain after two cleanses which is currently the normal situation depending on your order of dot application and whether you want to save the 1s by re-applying acid bomb and shifting it to the front of your rotation. In all cases, Incendiary Rounds is a sacrificial DoT.

This is mainly an argument for single target DPS grenadier but it can be easily extrapolated to fit a pure AoE grenadier.

I am not familiar enough with Magus to make the argument for this class as well.

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Penril wrote:So you are saying that a class you never touched is OP?
Go play it before posting about it pal...

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Grunbag
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Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#12 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:26 pm

As far as I know , sticky bomb have replaced pepper bomb (silence) , both magus/engineer has a silence in aoe tree before stinky bomb been introduced.
Why don't just bring back original ability in that tree instead of this useless ability ?
Maybe put it a 11 points instead of 6 mastery points ?

Engineer :
Pepper Bomb
25 Action Points - 65 ft range - 1s cast - 30s cooldown
You lob a grenade packed full of a noxious choking powder, dealing 150 Corporeal damage to your enemy and silencing them for 5 seconds, making them unable to use magic.

Magus:
Theft Of Words
25 Action Points 65 ft range 1s cast 30s cooldown
Rips the voice from your target, dealing 60 Elemental damage and silencing them for 5 seconds.

Maybe less player would chose keg at 11 points in tinkerer path and will go for pepper bomb at 11 points
Grunbag - 40 - 33 Squig Herder
Skorri - 40 - 65 Engineer

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Jaycub
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Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#13 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:46 pm

I see this as a good chance for magus/engineer in the same way the shrug it off/(i forget) rework for shaman/AM discussion moved from a simple increased in heal to the utility addition which propelled those classes forward so much that many players will tell you AM/Shaman are the best raw healers in the game. You also see a lot of good order guilds running AM/RP groups now as well.

More damage on this ability won't solve any of the problems either of these classes have, and in fact it will just perpetuate the unnecessary hate they receive for being as of now the absolute best PUG classes in the game.

This would be an amazing chance for engineer/magus to get the utility they need to finally be serious picks in a 6v6 environment, and brought into organized warbands for more than just pull bots.

Something like a 25% outgoing healdebuff could be game changing for them.
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Tankbeardz
Posts: 627

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#14 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:32 pm

Jaycub wrote:I see this as a good chance for magus/engineer in the same way the shrug it off/(i forget) rework for shaman/AM discussion moved from a simple increased in heal to the utility addition which propelled those classes forward so much that many players will tell you AM/Shaman are the best raw healers in the game. You also see a lot of good order guilds running AM/RP groups now as well.

More damage on this ability won't solve any of the problems either of these classes have, and in fact it will just perpetuate the unnecessary hate they receive for being as of now the absolute best PUG classes in the game.

This would be an amazing chance for engineer/magus to get the utility they need to finally be serious picks in a 6v6 environment, and brought into organized warbands for more than just pull bots.

Something like a 25% outgoing healdebuff could be game changing for them.
Outgoing debuff would means it would have to go off near a healer unless it was changed to have to be casted on a healer. Neither situation is all that desirable and I'm not so sure that is viable. Incoming would make more sense imo.

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Jaycub
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Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#15 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:38 pm

just an example of utility, could be a lot of things really. The reasoning for outgoing over incoming is in a group setting you are gonna have 50% incoming healdebuffs, 25% incoming healdebuff on the engineer is essentially moot. However an outgoing ranged heal debuff is something entirely new to the game and some serious utility that an engineer can bring to a group that would otherwise not have an outgoing healdebuff, or would only be able to apply it when the healer is the focus target (RIP WL pounce outgoing pounce back in).
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Penril
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Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#16 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:40 pm

Take it easy guys, Engi/Magus don't need any kind of heal debuff (they don't need one; both are in pretty good shape atm).

Think of other ways to make SoC/SB useful.

Tankbeardz
Posts: 627

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#17 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:44 pm

Jaycub wrote:just an example of utility, could be a lot of things really. The reasoning for outgoing over incoming is in a group setting you are gonna have 50% incoming healdebuffs, 25% incoming healdebuff on the engineer is essentially moot. However an outgoing ranged heal debuff is something entirely new to the game and some serious utility that an engineer can bring to a group that would otherwise not have an outgoing healdebuff, or would only be able to apply it when the healer is the focus target (RIP WL pounce outgoing pounce back in).
I agree that the 25% incoming wouldn't make much sense in a 6v6 situation and I could get on board with this. It would make more sense to attach a ST 50% outgoing heal debuff to the single target tree or increase the range of the sticky bomb so that you could target a healer in the backlines.

Tankbeardz
Posts: 627

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#18 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:45 pm

Penril wrote:Take it easy guys, Engi/Magus won't get any kind of heal debuff (they don't need one; both are in pretty good shape atm).

Think of other ways to make SoC/SB useful.
I, respectfully, disagree. Heal debuff makes much more sense for a DPS class than it does for a heal class.

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Penril
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Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#19 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:55 pm

Just because it makes more sense does not mean they should have one. With that logic, Sorcs should have a heal debuff as well.

Magus/Engi are in pretty good shape atm, with strong ST rotations (harder to react to since they don't telegraph them like a Sorc does with WoP) and interesting turret buffs. Imho, a heal debuff would be too much. And as a side effect, it would kill SWs.

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Jaycub
Posts: 3130

Re: [Engineer - Magus] Sticky bombs / Seed of chaos

Post#20 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:59 pm

Penril wrote:Take it easy guys, Engi/Magus won't get any kind of heal debuff (they don't need one; both are in pretty good shape atm).

Think of other ways to make SoC/SB useful.
Engineer/Magus still in pretty bad spots for 6 mans, i know 1v1/pug arguments are not allowed but what looking glass are we using for balance discussions, or is it a per thread basis and if so what are we looking to accomplish in this thread. It seems like giving engineer slightly more damage/pressure potential in large scale ORvR fighting is the goal here if HD's are out of the realm of possibility?
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