[Eng/Magus] Sticky Bombs / Seed of Chaos

[Grunbag]

I don't think engineer need a heal debuff to get chose in 6-6 premade.
There is enough class that got already one , and engineer can use concussive mine tactic which already decrease healing power .

Grenadier tree needs some damages abilities , the only one worth enough is napalm : both strafin run and sticky bomb don't makes grenadier tree better .

Karast proposal was a good idea , aoe explosions proc on it could make it more valuable .

If adding a debuff would make it more usefull why don't you think about a Ap drain or wound debuff ?

[Tankbeardz]

Please quote the part where I say that this won't fix them in 6 mans, or the part where I agree with giving them a heal debuff because it would make them better for 6v6.

Please quote the part where i say you said so, "they" refers to them saying so, thats why is there in "who all they did".

And the problem is not what you said, the problem is how we got to this point at all, how 2 guys agreeing on something makes ok for the entire thread to derail into another discussion altogether.

And in case someone forgot what it was about Karast basically proposed making sticky bomb a debuff that would do aoe damage around the target whenever they recieved damage. Does it need an icd? What range should the aoe be? What damage?

Because the point is to give the worthless aoe tree for engi and magus something so they can perform that role better, thats why he created the thread, if he wanted to make a thread about making Engies better in 6 man, he would, he knows the difference between those 2 topics.

You clearly know nothing about these classes and are biased towards...well, I'm not really sure what you are arguing about. You do realize that a Warband is just 4 6-man teams, right? You seem to like to start drama just for the sake of starting drama.

Thanks for sharing.

[Tankbeardz]

I don't think engineer need a heal debuff to get chose in 6-6 premade.
There is enough class that got already one , and engineer can use concussive mine tactic which already decrease healing power .

Grenadier tree needs some damages abilities , the only one worth enough is napalm : both strafin run and sticky bomb don't makes grenadier tree better .

Karast proposal was a good idea , aoe explosions proc on it could make it more valuable .

If adding a debuff would make it more usefull why don't you think about a Ap drain or wound debuff ?

An AP drain, similar to what the AM/Shammy have, could be worth exploring. An AP drain team could be good fun.

A wounds debuff is usually covered by another class already.

The AOE tree is not useless because of the damage, but because of the cleanses.

Concussive mine doesn't really make engi any more desirable in a 6-man since you get that and loads more burst with a guarded slayer. Magus doesn't even have that option.

[Grunbag]

I don't think engineer need a heal debuff to get chose in 6-6 premade.
There is enough class that got already one , and engineer can use concussive mine tactic which already decrease healing power .

Grenadier tree needs some damages abilities , the only one worth enough is napalm : both strafin run and sticky bomb don't makes grenadier tree better .

Karast proposal was a good idea , aoe explosions proc on it could make it more valuable .

If adding a debuff would make it more usefull why don't you think about a Ap drain or wound debuff ?

An AP drain, similar to what the AM/Shammy have, could be worth exploring. An AP drain team could be good fun.

A wounds debuff is usually covered by another class already.

The AOE tree is not useless because of the damage, but because of the cleanses.

Concussive mine doesn't really make engi any more desirable in a 6-man since you get that and loads more burst with a guarded slayer. Magus doesn't even have that option.

As far as I known , slayer has a CD debuff while concussive mine increase cast time and can be applied all the time.

Cleanse always been the grenadier counterpart isn't it ? Don't think cleanse is the problem.

Karast idea was to increase explosion proc and damage while removing the dot portion but still make it cleanse-able ? Maybe I misunderstood the proposal.

[Tankbeardz]

I don't think engineer need a heal debuff to get chose in 6-6 premade.
There is enough class that got already one , and engineer can use concussive mine tactic which already decrease healing power .

Grenadier tree needs some damages abilities , the only one worth enough is napalm : both strafin run and sticky bomb don't makes grenadier tree better .

Karast proposal was a good idea , aoe explosions proc on it could make it more valuable .

If adding a debuff would make it more usefull why don't you think about a Ap drain or wound debuff ?

An AP drain, similar to what the AM/Shammy have, could be worth exploring. An AP drain team could be good fun.

A wounds debuff is usually covered by another class already.

The AOE tree is not useless because of the damage, but because of the cleanses.

Concussive mine doesn't really make engi any more desirable in a 6-man since you get that and loads more burst with a guarded slayer. Magus doesn't even have that option.

As far as I known , slayer has a CD debuff while concussive mine increase cast time and can be applied all the time.

Cleanse always been the grenadier counterpart isn't it ? Karast idea was to increase explosion proc and damage while reducing the dot but still make it cleansable ? Maybe I misunderstood the proposal

Ah you got me there...but CD debuff and increase cast time, esenntially, do the same thing, except the slayer can keep applying it. I dunno, I was just throwing out ideas.

Increase in damage is not the answer....it never has been IMO.

[Karast]

One of the things people need to think about when suggesting putting a debuff on the explosion effect of these skills is that, that is a horrible place to put it.

After extensive testing getting the explosion to trigger is no easy task. The skill needs to be up for 15s, you cannot reapply within that time frame because reapplying, refreshes the dot meaning you loose the explosion, and it can be cleansed.

Even in the best of scenarios 15s is a long time, and even with grenade turret out for the improved 10s, you cannot put an important debuff like a heal / wounds / whatever debuff on a 10-15s delay. That is too unpredictable, and unreliable for any kind of premade or warband play. It would be next to useless.

The thing people need to think about with these abilities is what propose do they serve? They do not provide any kind of dps or burst at all. The only reason anyone even uses them is try to prevent more important dots from being cleansed. If cleansing were fixed or adjusted, they would be totally useless.

My main goal with the suggestion is to make these abilities meaningful in a dps rotation, and to get away from the weak dots that plague the trees.

It is a telling fact that friction burn does more damage than acid bomb, frag grenade, and sticky bombs combined.

[Grunbag]

An AP drain, similar to what the AM/Shammy have, could be worth exploring. An AP drain team could be good fun.

A wounds debuff is usually covered by another class already.

The AOE tree is not useless because of the damage, but because of the cleanses.

Concussive mine doesn't really make engi any more desirable in a 6-man since you get that and loads more burst with a guarded slayer. Magus doesn't even have that option.

As far as I known , slayer has a CD debuff while concussive mine increase cast time and can be applied all the time.

Cleanse always been the grenadier counterpart isn't it ? Karast idea was to increase explosion proc and damage while reducing the dot but still make it cleansable ? Maybe I misunderstood the proposal

Ah you got me there...but CD debuff and increase cast time, esenntially, do the same thing, except the slayer can keep applying it. I dunno, I was just throwing out ideas.

Increase in damage is not the answer....it never has been IMO.

As the Issue was low ST damage and useless ability , Make it aoe with better damage would already makes it better .
Of course this won't solve the 6-man issue you pointed out , but sticky bomb is not the reason why engi /magus are not picked up in premade . (Personally i always been chosed in premade when I asked)

Maybe the fact that cleanse makes grenadier path less efficient is a problem but this is not the thread here.

We should find a solution about sticky bomb to make it better , but I think any stick bomb's solution would not solve the 6-man issue by itself .

[Grunbag]

One of the things people need to think about when suggesting putting a debuff on the explosion effect of these skills is that, that is a horrible place to put it.

After extensive testing getting the explosion to trigger is no easy task. The skill needs to be up for 15s, you cannot reapply within that time frame because reapplying, refreshes the dot meaning you loose the explosion, and it can be cleansed.

Even in the best of scenarios 15s is a long time, and even with grenade turret out for the improved 10s, you cannot put an important debuff like a heal / wounds / whatever debuff on a 10-15s delay. That is too unpredictable, and unreliable for any kind of premade or warband play. It would be next to useless.

The thing people need to think about with these abilities is what propose do they serve? They do not provide any kind of dps or burst at all. The only reason anyone even uses them is try to prevent more important dots from being cleansed. If cleansing were fixed or adjusted, they would be totally useless.

My main goal with the suggestion is to make these abilities meaningful in a dps rotation, and to get away from the weak dots that plague the trees.

It is a telling fact that friction burn does more damage than acid bomb, frag grenade, and sticky bombs combined.

Agreed . Why players don't chose sticky bomb ? Because it's weak and expensive .
The only thing is making actually sticky bomb good compared to frag grenade is corp damage that can takes benefits of acid bomb debuff .

I think grenadier feel a lack of power full abilities in grenadier tree , and at midrange grenadier doesn't have that much powerful aoe abilities. If you take a look at grenadier tree , sticky bomb is weak , strafin run doesn't makes that much dmg (radius is small and not corporeal) and it gives free immune to destro for a ridiculous KB.

So basically , actually you spend mastery points in grenadier tree only to get napalm and increase core abilities dps.

I agree with karast , sticky bomb need to deal more damage with explosion instead of a weak st dot that don't gives anything in aoe rotation

I was thinking of adding some proc like nitroglycerin grenade did :
A grenade attack which covers your target with explosives for 10 seconds. Any time they are hit by a melee or ranged attack, there is a 25% chance that all enemies within 20 feet of them will take damage.

When you throw a sticky bomb, melee or ranged attack can increase explosions proc ? Throwing sticky bomb would deal a dot but with the nitroglycerin grenade proc, sticky bomb can make aoe explosions when the target take damage from ranged or melee ?

[Osred]

I was thinking of adding some proc like nitroglycerin grenade did :
A grenade attack which covers your target with explosives for 10 seconds. Any time they are hit by a melee or ranged attack, there is a 25% chance that all enemies within 20 feet of them will take damage.

When you throw a sticky bomb, melee or ranged attack can increase explosions proc ? Throwing sticky bomb would deal a dot but with the nitroglycerin grenade proc, sticky bomb can make aoe explosions when the target take damage from ranged or melee ?

I'd definitely be up for the replacement of Sticky Bomb and Strafing run with new abilities. I'd imagine once they have client control + patcher theyd be able to reintroduce the lost Alpha/Beta abilities still hanging around in the client.

[Grunbag]

Not necessary reintroduce beta abilities , why not get inspiration of old abilities to modify the current one ? Adding nitroglyceryn proc on stinky bomb could work to make it better and AoE .