[Herder] Path of Stabbin' Horned Squig

[Grunbag]

I have prob missed it , can't find this thread in the serverchangelog

The horned squig bonus got already a quick fix, but it doesnt solve the other parts of my OP
The tanky melee squig instead of a 100ft ranged squig (when some tactics and abilities needs you and your pet the be both close to the target)

Horned squig receive also a bonus from wounds and toughness that are really needed stats in stabbin path . So still think horned squig would fit better path of stabbin . More tanky is your melee squig , more chances you have to keep your armor bonus in the melee.

Also, Gaz squig with +10% range bonus would be better for big shooting : you don't have to let your pet inactive to keep your bonus . The Gaz squig has 100ft Range , which mean it can attack your target (while currently sending your horned squig has a lot of chance to watch it die and lose your bonus for the next 30 sec) without so much risk to see it die.
So more chance to keep your +10% range bonus with Gaz squig.

Plus in keep siege , big shooting tree would be more interresting with a aoe ranged squig , more damages than with the horned squig . Both you and your squig will attack a target at 100ft Range +. And while the Gaz squig got more resist than horned squig, gaz squig would survive more longer against casters.

[catholicism198]

Spoiler:

I noticed that during beta, horned squig and gaz squig got their bonus switched : horned squig gave armor bonus and gaz squig gave +10% range bonus
The pet is actually a big choice in the Path of stabbin' build, since you need the armor bonus.

Issue : The squig pet

For a unknown reason , Mythics have exchange horned squig and gaz squig's bonus. Gaz squig is the weakest (survivability) squig and take his bonus from BS and WS but actually this is the one you chose for the armor bonus in squig armor, and he is a ranged squig. Gas squig die too quickly, stay sometimes too far away from herder, and his bonus are not in line with the path of stabbin'.
When you take a look at Horned squig, it takes his bonus from strength and toughness and he his stronger against melee attack, plus it is a melee squig, so better for melee Squig Herder tactic/abilities bonus.


Solution for Squig Pet Issue

Switch back armor bonus to horned squig and +10% range bonus to gaz squig.

Using Horned squig will add more survivability to Squig Herder because having a stronger melee pet would makes 'Ere Squiggy! tactic working better.

The horned squig would be more often near you than a weak (survivability) 100ft ranged squig that stay sometimes out of 'Ere Squiggy! tactic radius (45ft), would not die quickly (200% armor for horned squig while Gaz squig have 100% armor) in the melee.
Here the horned squig and gas squig statistic in RoR :

Horned Squig

Armor: 200%
Resistances: 50%
Hit Points: 100%
Weapon DPS: Squig Herder's ranged slot and main hand DPS

Gas Squig

Base Range: 100ft
Armor: 100%
Resistances: 100%
Hit Points: 60%
Weapon DPS: Squig Herder's ranged slot DPS


Also, Git Em!'s damage bonus will be more efficient with a melee squig and, at the same time, make Sharp Toofs tactic more attractive.
Also the bonus received from strength, wounds and toughness to Horned squig would be more in line with stabbin tree and SA bonus.
While the bonus received from BS and WS to gaz squig will be more In line with big shootin tree.

Here horned squig and gaz squig at AoR Beta: (source: http://forums.jeuxonline.info/showthread.php?t=919514 the website is in french but the abilities and their tooltip are in english, also here you can read how was horned squig and gas squig at beta/release : http://warhammercheats.blogspot.fr/2008 ... eview.html , i can link more website if needed.)

Horned Squig Buff
Core Ability Level 8
60 Action Points
2s cast 30s cooldown
You may only have 1 active pet
Summons a Horned squig pet which you can order around. This pet deals more damage than a basic squig. It is strong against physical attacks, but weak against magic.
This pet receives a bonus to Strength equal to your bonus from items. This pet receives a bonus to Toughness and Wounds that is 50% of your bonus from items.
Your armor is increased by 100% as long as this squig is alive. Cooldown will begin when you lose control of your pet for any reason.

Gaz Squig Buff
Core Ability Level 9
60 Action Points
2s cast 30s cooldown
You may only have 1 active pet
Summons a Gas squig pet which you can order around. This pet attacks from range, but is very weak to attacks.
This pet receives a bonus to Ballistic Skill and Weapon Skill equal to your bonus from items.
The maximum range of your bow attacks is increased by 10% as long as this squig is alive. Cooldown will begin when you lose control of your pet for any reason.


Mythic changed their bonus at release : (source : https://www.engadget.com/2008/09/05/war ... notes/)

Thanks for havig a look,

Grunbag

I remember saying something similar when I first posted that link...
Like all changes in this game's life, from alpha to 1.4.8, some of them make sense, others don't, and some just fall somewhere in between. This one happens to fall somewhere in between...besides, it's not like this was the only thing that was changed. I think they probably just 'forgot' to change where the squigs get their stat bonus from.

If you look at the changes you'll see that the Stabbin' mastery was completely revamped to showcase Squig Armor. They added multiple abilities to be used while you're in squig armor which, for the most part, were all AE abilities (Big Bouncin'!, Kaboom!, Ingestion- Bad Gas was changed to an AE dmg ability w/ self heal... ) so it made sense to move the AE squig to the AE mastery.
This was also the same time that the (single target) Horned Squig was given its Knock Back- essential for ranged careers.

Now that that's out of the way...
I do agree that there's a lack of synergy? with *some* of the tactics and abilities that one would use for this mastery and the pet being used, but changing the passive buffs that the squigs provide is not the way to go about to remedy this. ...If they were to do that then you'd end with two squig abilities that who's secondary effect will serve no purpose. In fact, Head Butt will actually end up reducing a (melee) Squig Herder's damage output because you'd be knocking the target out of range making it easier for them to kite you, and/or escape. You can't damage what you can't reach, right? Then there's Spore Cloud...Spore Cloud is both a damaging ability and a self-heal, a weak one but a heal nonetheless- which require you to meet two conditions for it to proc; you need to be within 30ft of the main target and you have to be in Squig Armor... something a ranged Squig Herder is supposed to be in.

The alternative to switching the passive buffs, one that won't severely affect a ranged Squig Herder, would be to make the Gas Squig a mid range Squig. This would mean that both Goop Shootin' and Spore Cloud would have their range reduced to 35ft which means that your squig will always be in range for you both to benefit from Spore Cloud, for bonus damage from Git Em!, and the damage distribution/sharing from 'Ere, Squiggy! They could also take it a step further by changing the Gas Squig's primary stat to strength so that it would benefit from He's a Biggun' to make it more durable.


*Melee careers need all armor buffs they can get
**A Squig's range does not make much of a difference in it's overall damage output. -most, if not all, use a Spiked Squig anyways
***The proposed changes will not/should not inversely affect any future changes to the Stabbin'/Squig Armor mastery, but rather compliment them

Ugh...I'm tired. I'll tackle the Magus thread later....................

[Grunbag]

That's something I first thought about : focusing on gaz Squig to have more synergy wiTh path of stabbin .

But many things made me think that would me more difficult :

Gaz squig abilities use ballistic skill , it mean that giving strength bonus to gaz squig would not work with this pet abilities . Does git em use strength or BS ?

I know all of those changes from beta til 1.4.8 , but some the actual path of stabbin tactic / abilities (he's a big un , git em, sharp toof, ere squig) require a melee strength squig to work as intended.

Actually , he's a big un is a great tactic especially for melee squig , but you simply can't use it only for the toughness bonus.

Reducing gaz Squig range to 35 ft could be a solution indeed , it d solve the ere squig/git et issue .

Changing gaz Squig to a strength squig would be more difficult if you have to change also the pet abilities, won't this be weird that a ranged abilities use strength ?

Or maybe gaz Squig would convert strength bonus item to bs (included he's Big un's strength bonus )

Maybe there is something more simple : if the punt belong to big shooting path , give the punt to gaz Squig , and something else to horned squig .

[Grunbag]

Any dev can tell me if :

- Git'em for the herder use strength or Bs (can be parry or dodge)?
-Git'em for squig pet use strength or BS ?

And if gaz Squig's abilities use ballistic skill ?

[porkstar]

Not to get off topic too much but I think the entire stabbin' system should be updated. Many melee range skills are not usable in Squig Armor and imo they should be. If any changes are made to squig pets, the standard squig should be updated to give a bonus in Squig Armor. Maybe increased dmg and/or AA haste?

Anyway an example engagement could happen as follows: SH engages at Melee with Gas Squig, soften up the area, explode or eat Gassy, summon Leather Face (standard squig), begin to focus whatever you want. Your leather sack buddy will be close to you for Git Em.

Add the following bonuses to standard Squig - replace Taunt with Challenge 20s cooldown, +x% AA Haste and/or damage bonus within 15ft while wearing squig armor- Gains bonus to str 100% of SH BS, also 100% of WS, WOU from items

[Grunbag]

There is another proposal about stabbin tree abilities and tactic , and torquemafra already said that he worked hardly onthe sabbin tree , many things will come with client control .

That's why we're discussing separately about the squig pet , cause many thing are wrong with the actual path of Stabbin. Pet

[porkstar]

There is another proposal about stabbin tree abilities and tactic , and torquemafra already said that he worked hardly onthe sabbin tree , many things will come with client control .

That's why we're discussing separately about the squig pet , cause many thing are wrong with the actual path of Stabbin. Pet

Oh excellent to know! That is very exciting to hear. I still support my suggestion to re-work the standard squig.

[Grunbag]

Work on the standard squig would make gas squig useless , and standard squig is really usefull for pve.

your proposal il really good for making this squig better for pve, which it needs some view either . But that belong to another proposal I think ?

[catholicism198]

Spoiler:

That's something I first thought about : focusing on gaz Squig to have more synergy wiTh path of stabbin .

But many things made me think that would me more difficult :

Gaz squig abilities use ballistic skill , it mean that giving strength bonus to gaz squig would not work with this pet abilities . Does git em use strength or BS ?

I know all of those changes from beta til 1.4.8 , but some the actual path of stabbin tactic / abilities (he's a big un , git em, sharp toof, ere squig) require a melee strength squig to work as intended.

Actually , he's a big un is a great tactic especially for melee squig , but you simply can't use it only for the toughness bonus.

Reducing gaz Squig range to 35 ft could be a solution indeed , it d solve the ere squig/git et issue .

Changing gaz Squig to a strength squig would be more difficult if you have to change also the pet abilities, won't this be weird that a ranged abilities use strength ?

Or maybe gaz Squig would convert strength bonus item to bs (included he's Big un's strength bonus )

Maybe there is something more simple : if the punt belong to big shooting path , give the punt to gaz Squig , and something else to horned squig .

I think changing the range of the gas squig and it's primary stat would be easier than changing which mastery each squig is associated with and it's abilities.
A Witch Hunter's pistol based finishers and snare are all range abilities yet their damage scales with strength*, so why not the gas squig's abilities?

*They originally scaled with ballistic skill

Spoiler:

Not to get off topic too much but I think the entire stabbin' system should be updated. Many melee range skills are not usable in Squig Armor and imo they should be. If any changes are made to squig pets, the standard squig should be updated to give a bonus in Squig Armor. Maybe increased dmg and/or AA haste?

Anyway an example engagement could happen as follows: SH engages at Melee with Gas Squig, soften up the area, explode or eat Gassy, summon Leather Face (standard squig), begin to focus whatever you want. Your leather sack buddy will be close to you for Git Em.

Add the following bonuses to standard Squig - replace Taunt with Challenge 20s cooldown, +x% AA Haste and/or damage bonus within 15ft while wearing squig armor- Gains bonus to str 100% of SH BS, also 100% of WS, WOU from items

The standard squig was always assumed to be a PvE squig, which is why it has a taunt ability to steal focus from you and one to knock down the enemy to prevent the mobs from reaching you so easily. It doesn't need a buff, nor does it need to provide one.

As for the Path of Stabbin' mastery abilities...the ones that you cannot use, aside from the interrupt, while in Squig Armor are replaced by similar ones that serve the same function, but are far more effective since your ballistic stat conversion to strength gives them an added boost.
Stabbity is replaced by Ard Noggin' and Cut Ya! is replaced by Big Claw.

One of the main things that needs to change, aside from giving the Squig Herder a gap closer, the ability to mount up while in squig armor, allowing them to use their interrupt while in squig armor, bring back Shout*, and the gas squig's primary stat and range, is the mastery's name as it leads to a lot of confusion. I feel like this is something Mythic never got around to doing, or worse- forgot, as they removed or replaced most of the Squig Herder's stabbin' (spear) abilities in favor of squig armor ones.

*Shout
An armor debuff that's only useable while in squig armor (sans morale drain, does not stack with What Blocka? and require you to be 30ft within the target)


See, you guys are complicating things way too much.

[porkstar]

Spoiler:

Not to get off topic too much but I think the entire stabbin' system should be updated. Many melee range skills are not usable in Squig Armor and imo they should be. If any changes are made to squig pets, the standard squig should be updated to give a bonus in Squig Armor. Maybe increased dmg and/or AA haste?

Anyway an example engagement could happen as follows: SH engages at Melee with Gas Squig, soften up the area, explode or eat Gassy, summon Leather Face (standard squig), begin to focus whatever you want. Your leather sack buddy will be close to you for Git Em.

Add the following bonuses to standard Squig - replace Taunt with Challenge 20s cooldown, +x% AA Haste and/or damage bonus within 15ft while wearing squig armor- Gains bonus to str 100% of SH BS, also 100% of WS, WOU from items

The standard squig was always assumed to be a PvE squig, which is why it has a taunt ability to steal focus from you and one to knock down the enemy to prevent the mobs from reaching you so easily. It doesn't need a buff, nor does it need to provide one Disagree. Horny has a PvE KD. A challenge would be arguably more useful in PvE and absolutely more useful in PvP. Standard could easily be worked into a more useful PvP role.

As for the Path of Stabbin' mastery abilities...the ones that you cannot use, aside from the interrupt, while in Squig Armor are replaced by similar ones that serve the same function, but are far more effective since your ballistic stat conversion to strength gives them an added boost.
Stabbity is replaced by Ard Noggin' Agree. and Cut Ya!is replaced by Big Claw Disagree. These (CY and BC) should be two separate abilities (cooldowns are different , dot values are different).

One of the main things that needs to change, aside from giving the Squig Herder a gap closer Agree, the ability to mount up while in squig armor Agree., allowing them to use their interrupt while in squig armor Agree. Don't Hit Me usable in Squig armor, bring back Shout*, and the gas squig's primary stat and range, is the mastery's name as it leads to a lot of confusion. I feel like this is something Mythic never got around to doing, or worse- forgot, as they removed or replaced most of the Squig Herder's stabbin' (spear) abilities in favor of squig armor ones.

*Shout
An armor debuff that's only useable while in squig armor (sans morale drain, does not stack with What Blocka? and require you to be 30ft within the target) - Agree

I have far less insight into the original Stabbin' design. I bet you could submit an excellent proposal and bring back some retro abilities but we'd be getting off topic.