Resolute Defenses redesigned

[Darosh]

[snip] - Offtopic.

[Zemnexx]

So, snares do leave your group on a "back foot"? I see, you've meant it literally - not as in:

(...)getting CC chained into oblivion(...)

My apologies, matey.

Back to topic.

Apologies. Yes, I was using hyperbole when I said that.

[Morf]

"CC-dead" happens in everything 6>/pug, much less in 6 given coordination is taking place.
Abbd.: If its 6v6 I don't see an issue in "CC-dead" given the coordination it requires under these circumstances.
Abbd.: I don't see an issue with "CC-dead" in anything >6 either, given the numbers (and at times coordination) in play.

RD in its current iteration does not have to be used proactively in all instances.
Kiting and playing defensively is not an issue for people that utilize RD to faciliate exactly that: kiting.

Sov 8pc bonus is a moot point not only because its not a thing on RoR, but because it was - as Tesq pointed out - an on-use on a gearset accessible to <one> archetype granting the RD-esque effect to the entire group without means to individually time it to gurantee a return in all instances.

Well thats the thing in a 6v6 fight when u see your opponent/opponents with RD icon above their head you pull back as a team and wait for it to finish or if you are going for someone and they pop RD its usually best to pick a different target because you wont be able to snare/kd/chch etc etc, so idk maybe RD problem is purely a pug issue ?

Sov will be a thing at some point and i imagine the 8th piece bonuses will also be a thing, not sure why inex force should be thought as any different from RD because every group runs atleast 1 tank, infact it is more powerful because it affects your whole group, it shouldnt be hard to use it properly in a group setting if you are coordinated.

Anyway, all you need to do if you see someone with RD up is to wait until it expires, smart players know this and react to it. bare in mind it isnt a free skill, you will either lose def or off my picking it up.

[Darosh]

Well thats the thing in a 6v6 fight when u see your opponent/opponents with RD icon above their head you pull back as a team and wait for it to finish or if you are going for someone and they pop RD its usually best to pick a different target because you wont be able to snare/kd/chch etc etc, so idk maybe RD problem is purely a pug issue ?

Sov will be a thing at some point and i imagine the 8th piece bonuses will also be a thing, not sure why inex force should be thought as any different from RD because every group runs atleast 1 tank, infact it is more powerful because it affects your whole group, it shouldnt be hard to use it properly in a group setting if you are coordinated.

You continue to neglect ORvR in your considerations.

RD is a pug issue in everything pug related, yes - but dumbs down everything competitive to exactly one CD, if you were to face coordinated opposition in the lakes after fights you pop RD in.

In everything ORvR related that features everything; warbands (both pug and coordinated) and 6mans, you are looking at
kiting groups thats entire schtick revolves around one CD, coordinated warband clashes that revolve around one CD and pugfarming that revolves around one CD [Abbd.: Yes pugfarming is pugfarming, but even pugwbs could take care of bad kiting groups if not for RD].

In 6v6 in a controlled environment that does not exist RD is a non-issue, yet prolongs fights and allows for mistakes that should end fights.

Sov inex is locked away behind a high RR gearset - that alone would reintroduce powercreep.

Abbd.: To elaborate on the coordinated warband clashes: There is no point making an effort of coordinating the movement of your players if all you need to do is coordinate the use of RD within your warband to enable it to blow its load uncontested.
Abbd.: Leave the snare immunity and a fix number of CC dodges, hell even up its duration as such if you really wanted to but disable the gifting of immunities (that are already all over the place thanks to pugs, making it - in combination with RD - almost impossible to have a CC stick).

[Morf]

You continue to neglect ORvR in your considerations.

RD is a pug issue in everything pug related, yes - but dumbs down everything competitive to exactly one CD, if you were to face coordinated opposition in the lakes after fights you pop RD in.

In everything ORvR related that features everything; warbands (both pug and coordinated) and 6mans, you are looking at
kiting groups thats entire schtick revolves around one CD, coordinated warband clashes that revolve around one CD and pugfarming that revolves around one CD.

In 6v6 in a controlled environment that does not exist RD is a non-issue, yet prolongs fights and allows for mistakes that should end fights.

Sov inex is locked away behind a high RR gearset - that alone would reintroduce powercreep.

Im not neglecting it, i have said many a time that RD is an issue but an issue that imo requires tweaking CC immunity and perhaps aother things before RD is looked at, not just a straight up change to Rd and Rd only

Lets face it RD is used in group play to kite more numbers giving your team time to reposition and get your **** together, to push and get a few kills, as a we/wh to use after you pop and KD to try to guarantee a kill or in competitive 6v6 play to prolong a fight because in competitive play players will react to it.

I dont see any massive problems using it like this, im not usually someone to say blah blah pug issue but i honestly think thats what it boils down to because how i have experienced fighting good players and bad players while using/abusing RD, bad players will continue to waste ability cd's, cc, dismounting etc etc while good players will wait it out and use CC/dismount etc when the RD icon is gone and have no problems at all.

Whether inex force is locked behind a high rr gearset its still a thing, its very powerful in the right hands and not very powerful in the wrong hands, back on live ppl would use full sov sets instead of 4 piece warpforged due to the 8th piece bonus, powercreep ? maybe, only time will tell.

[Darosh]

Im not neglecting it, i have said many a time that RD is an issue but an issue that imo requires tweaking CC immunity and perhaps aother things before RD is looked at, not just a straight up change to Rd and Rd only

Lets face it RD is used in group play to kite more numbers giving your team time to reposition and get your **** together, to push and get a few kills, as a we/wh to use after you pop and KD to try to guarantee a kill or in competitive 6v6 play to prolong a fight because in competitive play players will react to it.

I dont see any massive problems using it like this, im not usually someone to say blah blah pug issue but i honestly think thats what it boils down to because how i have experienced fighting good players and bad players while using/abusing RD, bad players will continue to waste ability cd's, cc, dismounting etc etc while good players will wait it out and use CC/dismount etc when the RD icon is gone and have no problems at all.

Whether inex force is locked behind a high rr gearset its still a thing, its very powerful in the right hands and not very powerful in the wrong hands, back on live ppl would use full sov sets instead of 4 piece warpforged due to the 8th piece bonus, powercreep ? maybe, only time will tell.

I absolute get where you are coming from, for the most part I do agree - the whole situation is a mess.

[snip] - Contained points I already made in prior posts. Sleep deprivation tends to lead to mindless repetition - my apologies.

Abbd.: In other words: Uncoordinated cc works as RD enchancer currently, RD-lite + RD premium if you will [<< *phrasing fixed].

E: Words and stuff.

[Krima]

Spoiler:

I dont agree with changing RD, CW...isnt this game balanced towards 6v6 ?
when I play scnarios, caledor woods.. I dont even slot RD/CW its not worth...they on 10 min cd.
So no...no need to nerf RD/CW I need those to fight my 1vXs situation...I dont see it being OP.

RD+CW might be op 1v1, but as the gods says "this game is not balance 1v1.

my opinion

1. Do not make arguments based on engagements smaller than 6v6.

We are not interested in class performance and balance on scales smaller than 6v6. Period. Topics made based around such scales will be locked immediately, and posters making arguments which are based around performance at very small scales will be infracted. This rule primarily exists to keep 1on1 duelling topics out of the forum and to make it very clear that regardless of what anyone's opinion on the validity of duelling in Warhammer may be, we are not interested in dealing with it.

Gerv.

[th3gatekeeper]

Ok,

Lots of walls of text. I read it all and would like to try and funnel conversation towards options. Seems like most agree that RD needs a change. So here is what I would like to offer:

1) RD no longer removes, or makes immune to snares. Instead RD would give you immunity timers for 10 seconds preventing punts, staggers, KD, etc. So it would act as if the user had just been punted and KDin terms of effect, however only give the immunity for 10 sec, instead of longer.

This makes it less overpowered as the user cannot just ignore all slowing effects - which would then require use of their mechanic as well to be freed. (For tanks - Juggernaught) or mdps have their own "snare free".

This allows for some potential counter play. Also if advocate for immunity debuffs rather than just RD buff as it's ease of tracking without needing things like buffad. Everyone knows Immunity timers.

2)Change RD to not impact CC but instead it becomes a counter to short TTK in RvR, where it merely reduces inc damage by 15% for 10sec. Added ranks could add other things such as "increases healing on you 15% for 10sec" as well as final rank could "reduce chance to be crit by 15% for 10 sec". This provides counter play but isn't so game breaking as it's more an "oh ****" button.

3)Remove RD altogether. Which frankly might be the easiest to do... since it's breaking gameplay, zero counter play and worth more than any other 10 point RR.

[Collateral]

I dont agree with changing RD, CW...isnt this game balanced towards 6v6 ?
when I play scnarios, caledor woods.. I dont even slot RD/CW its not worth...they on 10 min cd.
So no...no need to nerf RD/CW I need those to fight my 1vXs situation...I dont see it being OP.

RD+CW might be op 1v1, but as the gods says "this game is not balance 1v1.

my opinion

It completely brakes any strategy in aoe warbands imho. When you morale bomb, you simply pop RD and you basically win. As it is known, there is no counter to it, you can't break the RD morale bomb, simple as that. So you don't have to worry about any punts, staggers, mines or whatever. It's total ez mode. Of course when you're outnumbered it's a different situation. Fighting 2 warbands is obviously very different than fighting only one, so I guess you could argue that RD helps the underdog side a bit. But of course that doesn't mean the other 2 warbands don't use RD. If everyone does (which is mostly the case), the situation is the same again, completely broken.

But as people here may notice, this leads us to morale bombs, their effectiveness, the morale gain rate, morale damage and so on. This is all very complicated stuff

[Aurandilaz]

Another idea:
RD: 10 sc CC immunity, but as a result your outgoing dmg/heal output is reduced by 20%, you will not recover any AP as long as you focus all your strength into staying "resolute" (-100% AP regen)

Op suggested -50 outgoing debuff, but I think that might be too much. -20 or maybe -30 might be closer to a sweet spot, especially if combined with AP debuff. (in theory, imagine if RD was instead a 10 sec long channeled ability that eats all AP up)

The interesting thing about this would be that it benefits classes that are less AP thirst, especially WP/DOK and and IB/BG who are currently somewhat out of favour. Essentially, an AP eating RD increases the value of those classes and ends up balancing them close to the "place in the sun" of other more "fotm" classes.

Obviously one could always just drink AP pots when hitting RD, but that way at least the cost of using RD is greater than what it was before, and the "skillcap" increases slightly. Alternatively you could also make the use of RD result in your AP pool emptying, the same way using Flee empties it.
And if one feels that despite RD exhausting your AP gain, AP pots would just be a work around, one could make the -100% AP gain debuff last for 15 seconds, meaning even with 2 AP pots ready to be used, you might still be AP starved thanks to using RD to save your skin.


One devilish way to ensure limited RD/CW use by players would also be to make health pots and AP pots share same cooldown as those beloved RA abilities, though I'm not sure if the devs can make that happen. (meaning, if you want to save your skin by using RD, you cannot drink AP pots, or if you use CW to save your skin, you cannot drink health pots)