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[AM/Sham] AP Drain

Proposals which did not pass the two week review, were rejected internally, or were not able to be implemented.
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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#41 » Tue May 23, 2017 6:56 am

Wait are you saying you can't cleanse the ap drain? wtf? I have a confuse.
Are you saying the cleanse statement is not valid? Are you saying that you can bury your ap drain and that voids the cleanse argument?

You know you put the ap drain on your off targets right? Not on the target of focus/main assist. You can't bury because the target might die before you get back the ap you spent on the ap drain. Ideally the target your focusing dies... So it is not wise to place your ap drain on it. You would be effectively ap draining yourself. You want to put the AP drain on targets that are not being focused. You bury heal debuff's, you don't bury ap drains. There is no cost to placing a heal debuff. There is a cost placing a ap drain.

You always ap drain off targets which because they are off targets... don't have a ton of dots on it. Ap drains go on things that are going to be around a little bit. You can't bury it like a heal debuff because you might not get back the ap. Or you take the risk I guess of actually killing the target your ap draining and then suffer through the ap self drain which can lead to a potential wipe... but if you killed their side then you have them on the back foot but still... their dps is still pushing... hmmm

I learned early on not to ap drain main assist targets because your main assist target just dies to fast. I dunno too risky. The main assisted target is also getting focused cleansed which could potentially steal your ap drain. No you don't ap drain the main assist, you ap drain the off target. Too risky to drain the main assist.

So...this topic is gettin a little too heavy into 6v6 stuff. 6v6 caledor woods stuff is only 10% of the game and most likely a hell of a lot less for the majority. Most engagements is larger then this, most sc's are 12 man and larger. You DEFINATELY don't ap drain the main assist on 12 man plus. That would be a retard thing to do. 12 man plus plough's through guard like nothing and then your ap drain is completely wasted.

Specifically how is the cleanse argument debunked?
Last edited by footpatrol2 on Tue May 23, 2017 7:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#42 » Tue May 23, 2017 7:00 am

In group situations I always try drain off something that is not being focused and to cover it loosing another 2 gcds ... Well I wouldn't be healing if I spent 3 gcds (4,5s) draining every 10s

I haven't played enough 6v6 lately so I honestly don't know if perma AP-drain is more effective then assist DDtrain. (I'd expect 6v6 groups to be able to control/counter it or is it the new meta? Any real proof of that?).

1v1 shouldn't matter but sure AP-drain is very potent there but so is 2x AP-potions/CW. Healers are pesky regardless and AM/Shammy are op just like mwps/mdoks.

In big scale blob morale/aoe is king and drains are fluff.

Should be returned to tick every 3s though regardless and it belongs in bug tracker imo
Last edited by Bozzax on Tue May 23, 2017 8:39 am, edited 13 times in total.
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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#43 » Tue May 23, 2017 7:12 am

ya there is no way i'm going to spend precious precious ap to bury my ap drain that needs to be re-applied every 10 sec's on a off-target. Madness...

There is two targets happening here. You have your main assist then your ap drain assist if you run multiple's which I do. Its a mini game for the healers. If your getting focused ap drained you call out on comms that you are. Your healers need to start cleansing you. Once your healer's start cleansing the drain's then JUST THAT could be a potential wipe for the ap drainer's group depending if it got cleansed early or not. You can't risk placing ap drain's on the main assist. You'll get wiped if their healer's cleanse an ap drain early. It doesn't cost you anything if their healers cleanse a heal debuff which happens time from time even when players are trying to bury. There IS a cost on ap drains.

Lets say the drainers are smart enough to see that their ap drain's are getting cleansed. The Ap drainer's switch targets. And whoever is the new target calls out on comms again. Cycle continue's. Its a mini game on top of the main assist game. If you cleanse the ap drain early... as in once it is applied that's a potential wipe.

If there is no cost due to experimental on cleansing a AP drain then there needs to be a cost because that is a MASSIVE fundamental change in the class. Then experimental shouldn't be reducing as much AP.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#44 » Tue May 23, 2017 8:47 am

A shaman can easily bury the AP drain by emself and they are much worse at it then AM. Bleed for me, Life Leaka, Gettin Smarta, AP drain.

But thats beside the point. Even if you don't get the full return in AP back coz the target dies to fast is win more issue. If target is dead you probobly don't need the drain.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#45 » Tue May 23, 2017 9:05 am

Ofc you can but you spend 4,5s out every 10s to drain (and cover) so for me it is not really an option when healing. I would not agree it is besides the point as the "all drains are buried" are passed around as something nullifying cleanse.

As dps shammy/am no problem but do we really see a lot of dps am/sham 6mans? Do other 6mans have problems with this setup? Is it the new meta with 2-3 drain 6man groups? (haven't seen one myself that is why I'm asking).

(If not a 6v6 problem is this a 1v1 or large scale problem?)

All this aside imo it should be put on bug tracker and tick every 3s to reduce efficiency.
Last edited by Bozzax on Tue May 23, 2017 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#46 » Tue May 23, 2017 9:10 am

But every 3sec tick just reverse the problem and makes the skills useless.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#47 » Tue May 23, 2017 9:13 am

Not true you will drain the host especially when they start with full pool and it will reduce the efficiency of ap-drains as a disable (by ap). Combine with one or two lesser ability drains and that host will struggle to do something without cleansing or ap pot-ing
Last edited by Bozzax on Tue May 23, 2017 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1093

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#48 » Tue May 23, 2017 9:31 am

Let me state again I agree with option 1. AP drain tic's happening like it did on AoR. (every 3 sec's) no other changes. The more I think on it the more I dislike that option and think it has more to do with experimental mode then the ap drain.

Let me state again the AP drain was not a issue previously when there were not that many AM's/Shamans on the server. Experimental mode exploded the population of AM/Shaman's. Wonder why...Maybe because experimental is over-performing? Maybe because suddenly order like's to wear dresses?

Looks like there is 2 different conversations happening here. Ap drains with healing AM/Shaman's and Ap drains with dps AM/Shaman's.

If your spending 2 or 3 gcd's trying to bury your ap drain and your doing that consistently then your not healing.

And... dps AM/shaman's don't have retarded high damage output like traditional dps classes. They can afford to bury on a main assist because they are not main healing and its the advantage of the spec/class that they can shut down a player if their drains are ignored, which is a main reason on why you would want to bring one if you cared about that. You get less dps then a traditional but you gain off healing and utility (includes drains). Dps AM/shaman's don't have the ap issue's that healing shaman's do or I should correctly say should have. If a dps AM/shaman run's out of AP it won't wipe the group. If a main healing AM/Shaman does it will.

If your treating the AM/Shaman as a dps class then he enter's a different category. A TON of dps classes can AP drain which you can't even cleanse be that through abilities or tactics. Why is the dps shaman/am treated differently? At least you can cleanse it. On traditional dps classes most of the time you can't.

I'd be looking more at experimental mode and reducing its ap reduction portion then at the AP drains.

Note:
Spoiler:
This topic is extremely frustrating to me because I've stated, like a year plus ago, that the drains on am/shaman's were a powerful tool and I produced builds based on this shared with the community and everyone laughed me off and said it was weak and that they can be cleansed. This was many months prior to any experimental mode. Now we have a thread talking about fundamentally changing Ap drains with a overpowered experimental mode. Classic.
Last edited by footpatrol2 on Tue May 23, 2017 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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NSKaneda
Posts: 968

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#49 » Tue May 23, 2017 6:30 pm

Morf wrote:whatever rotation on you doesnt mean you should run for the hills and always keep 100ft distance, the advantage melee have over range is to get on top of them, applying pressure so they are more concerned about surviving then trying to attack you, staying away (which is basically what you are saying the counter is) will get you no where.
And there's your answer to the question of how to deal with AP drain the most effective way. Plain and simple.
What I've written about the counter is that you shouldn't just stand there and whine that all your APs are gone but take action. Changing position =/= keeping 100ft distance.
BUT breaking LoS / range is still the most simple way to get back in the fight as caster class. Your response is team-oriented. You see there are plenty of ways.

BTW, instadrain of 180APs with 1 min CD is silly in my opinion since it nullifies the usefulness of the skill. All one has to do is to drink AP potion or fire AP regen skill away while AM/SHM has to wait another 50 seconds. What said change would do is to make AP drain work the same way Morale Drain does - useful only in funnel-like situations, employed by bomb squads and ignored by 90% of playing population.


Edit: hiding AP drain under a dot therefore making it uncleansable is THE dot-heavy classes tactic since 2008. You might as well say that all the really hard-hitting dots are uncleansable and therefore should be nerfed.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: Am/sham ap drain

Post#50 » Tue May 23, 2017 7:17 pm

lol have you ever been hit by Force of Will as a healer or a melee for that mather, while having a melee train on you? Yeah just pop AP potion and you're fine (sarcasm)

The idea of the 1min CD Instadrain was to make it a more group oriented, timed skill to take someone temporary out of comission to heal someone or burst someone down, aswell as way to deal with the issue of completly locking down classes for a longer peroid of time. There's nothing more frustrating in a PVP game then getting chain stunned and that is basicly what stacking AP drains does to you.
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