[Review] [SW] Scout Tactics

[dansari]

I feel okay only with 2a.
To be honest Festering Arrow is a bad skill itself. Its cast time is ridiculously long and can’t be justified by any other following rotations like mage classes have. So this skill and tactic should get a full rework to be viable in any group, until then SW can’t get a decent spot as ST-burst dps class (for now it’s better get BW for ST dmg or Engi in some cases).

That's why I like 1a and 2b. That gives you a 2s cast time, 10s cd ability that enables you to burst a target, with the stipulation that either part of the burst may get dodged.

The reason these changes seem so strong is because going full Scout in this scenario takes away both of your knockdowns, leaving the go-to ranged spec as this:

waronlinebuilder.org - Shadow Warrior build

So to make it worthwhile (imo) it has to have some type of strong damage component. Is a 50% damage increase or a 50% crit increaser too much? Maybe... that's what discussion is for. I think dismissing it outright because of what other classes can or can't accomplish already is disingenuous.

1a is absolutly not fine. With wispering wind and a M2 this becomes the sickest burst the planet has ever seen.

Saying that it would be very strong with whispering winds is appropriate, which is why I noted that the devs can code it so that fester is not affected by WW (though to lefze's point, you can already provide incredible burst through Brutal Assault + Whispering Winds). The M2 you're thinking of is no longer part of the game. Unless you're referring to Outrider Patrol?

1a with a swordsmaster and expert skirmisher = 1s spamables that hit around the fireball range. I would argue that its to much on the grounds of potential dps output.

If you're lobbing fester arrows within melee range, you're gonna have a bad time. SWs are incredibly squishy while not in Assault stance, and a SW in Scout stance can be punished immediately (kd while in Scout stance, punt guard, purple rain).

Finally, yes if the initiative debuffs start stacking this would impact SW in a large way. However because a Scout SW wouldn't have Wrist Slash or Eye Shot slotted, I don't anticipate this would make Scout any better without substantial changes, and bringing up scenarios in the future that also haven't had time to be tested is kind of outside the realm of why Scout changes are necessary.

[Panzerkasper]

1a is absolutly not fine. With wispering wind and a M2 this becomes the sickest burst the planet has ever seen.

Saying that it would be very strong with whispering winds is appropriate, which is why I noted that the devs can code it so that fester is not affected by WW (though to lefze's point, you can already provide incredible burst through Brutal Assault + Whispering Winds). The M2 you're thinking of is no longer part of the game. Unless you're referring to Outrider Patrol?

I'm not talking about UF nor Outrider Patrol.

[dansari]

1a is absolutly not fine. With wispering wind and a M2 this becomes the sickest burst the planet has ever seen.

Saying that it would be very strong with whispering winds is appropriate, which is why I noted that the devs can code it so that fester is not affected by WW (though to lefze's point, you can already provide incredible burst through Brutal Assault + Whispering Winds). The M2 you're thinking of is no longer part of the game. Unless you're referring to Outrider Patrol?

I'm not talking about UF nor Outrider Patrol.

?? It already works that way. Festering Arrow becomes a 1.5s cooldown with Focused Mind (instead of what.. 1.15s at best with 1a)? And it already works with WW. How many SWs do you see running that build in group?

[Manatikik]

1a is the only one that looks good to me. The rest of them seem to be trying to fit a square block in a round hole; trying to address issues Scout Stance doesn't currently have. With 2s FA that should alleviate most issues that Scout SW's have atm (outside of flame arrow only being an 80 ft (88 ft) range skill in reality which is not being able to deliver your burst in an effective manner.

@Panzer - WW/FM spam seems more dangerous than it really is and this change affects it little. In it's current state with flawless execution you can get 6 FA's off; with the proposed change with flawless execution you can get 8 FA's off. Not to mention this is a very niche and gimmicky build that would destroy pugs but a decent group can easily work around.

And just as a reminder to people Scout will never be top-notch in a 6v6 or WB fight in open ground (keep defense they can excel at however) and in a PUG SC Scout Stance is already doing alright; so I would rather see small gradual changes implemented to get it to a better spot than sweeping changes that could completely break the balance and get hit by on over correction

[Toldavf]

I feel okay only with 2a.
To be honest Festering Arrow is a bad skill itself. Its cast time is ridiculously long and can’t be justified by any other following rotations like mage classes have. So this skill and tactic should get a full rework to be viable in any group, until then SW can’t get a decent spot as ST-burst dps class (for now it’s better get BW for ST dmg or Engi in some cases).

That's why I like 1a and 2b. That gives you a 2s cast time, 10s cd ability that enables you to burst a target, with the stipulation that either part of the burst may get dodged.

The reason these changes seem so strong is because going full Scout in this scenario takes away both of your knockdowns, leaving the go-to ranged spec as this:

waronlinebuilder.org - Shadow Warrior build

So to make it worthwhile (imo) it has to have some type of strong damage component. Is a 50% damage increase or a 50% crit increaser too much? Maybe... that's what discussion is for. I think dismissing it outright because of what other classes can or can't accomplish already is disingenuous.

1a is absolutly not fine. With wispering wind and a M2 this becomes the sickest burst the planet has ever seen.

Saying that it would be very strong with whispering winds is appropriate, which is why I noted that the devs can code it so that fester is not affected by WW (though to lefze's point, you can already provide incredible burst through Brutal Assault + Whispering Winds). The M2 you're thinking of is no longer part of the game. Unless you're referring to Outrider Patrol?

1a with a swordsmaster and expert skirmisher = 1s spamables that hit around the fireball range. I would argue that its to much on the grounds of potential dps output.

If you're lobbing fester arrows within melee range, you're gonna have a bad time. SWs are incredibly squishy while not in Assault stance, and a SW in Scout stance can be punished immediately (kd while in Scout stance, punt guard, purple rain).

Finally, yes if the initiative debuffs start stacking this would impact SW in a large way. However because a Scout SW wouldn't have Wrist Slash or Eye Shot slotted, I don't anticipate this would make Scout any better without substantial changes, and bringing up scenarios in the future that also haven't had time to be tested is kind of outside the realm of why Scout changes are necessary.

I've seen skilled BW get away with it in the past and i see no reason why sw couldnt do the same.

[footpatrol2]

So I'd like to address the issue which I think there is no issue. Which mean's the suggested solutions are not needed.

The SW has straight up better tools over Big shoota SH's. The playstyle/tactic's are nearly identical. You want a increased damage Boost on your ap damage? I currently run 3 or 4 big shoota SH's in a single group comp for sc's and ORvR. We do very well just on our ap damage alone which is inferior to scout SW. This is with the removal of UF. Your kit on the SW is straight up better then big shoota SH's as far as ap damage in almost every way and you have better tactic's to increase your ap damage...

The only reason why I am bringing up the Big shoota SH group is because I have Less ap damage then Scout SW potentially does and we are doing great with it.

What will satisfy you?

You have fester arrow/flame arrow that can straight up bypass all resistances. On demand 25% damage increase every 30 sec's for 10 sec's with Vengeance of Nagarythe which is baseline... Group Crit increasing tactics, strikethrough tactic's... Hunter's Fervor to mitigate ap issue's. You used to have rkd and heal debuff option when targets got close.

Your kit is SO FAR SUPERIOR. I don't think SW scout from a ap damage output is Lackluster at ALL. I think what we have here is community group think dominating over reason. The communities perception that scout SW is weak is unwarranted.

The only nut punch to SW is what happened in it's off spec's which affect scout SW. The placement of the Heal debuff, the rkd requiring to be spec specific, really hurts a unsupported solo scout SW and a 3 or 4 scout SW group comp. Screwing around with the off-spec's affect's the entire class especially the 5 point abilities. How does the current Barrage ability being 5 point help scout? It doesn't. The heal debuff did. There used to be easy utility grabs for SW scout, baseline Rkd and heal debuff. I am pretty sure we didn't even get to discuss those things being moved around either.

A more balanced SW overall spec build would look like this over the current RoR set up. If you don't look it is the original set up.
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=sw;

This stuff wasn't broken to begin with.
The removal of Rkd being baseline and the placement of heal debuff caused by RoR is causing balance issue's not creating balance.

[Manatikik]

Spoiler:

I feel okay only with 2a.
To be honest Festering Arrow is a bad skill itself. Its cast time is ridiculously long and can’t be justified by any other following rotations like mage classes have. So this skill and tactic should get a full rework to be viable in any group, until then SW can’t get a decent spot as ST-burst dps class (for now it’s better get BW for ST dmg or Engi in some cases).

That's why I like 1a and 2b. That gives you a 2s cast time, 10s cd ability that enables you to burst a target, with the stipulation that either part of the burst may get dodged.

The reason these changes seem so strong is because going full Scout in this scenario takes away both of your knockdowns, leaving the go-to ranged spec as this:

waronlinebuilder.org - Shadow Warrior build

So to make it worthwhile (imo) it has to have some type of strong damage component. Is a 50% damage increase or a 50% crit increaser too much? Maybe... that's what discussion is for. I think dismissing it outright because of what other classes can or can't accomplish already is disingenuous.

1a is absolutly not fine. With wispering wind and a M2 this becomes the sickest burst the planet has ever seen.

Saying that it would be very strong with whispering winds is appropriate, which is why I noted that the devs can code it so that fester is not affected by WW (though to lefze's point, you can already provide incredible burst through Brutal Assault + Whispering Winds). The M2 you're thinking of is no longer part of the game. Unless you're referring to Outrider Patrol?

1a with a swordsmaster and expert skirmisher = 1s spamables that hit around the fireball range. I would argue that its to much on the grounds of potential dps output.

If you're lobbing fester arrows within melee range, you're gonna have a bad time. SWs are incredibly squishy while not in Assault stance, and a SW in Scout stance can be punished immediately (kd while in Scout stance, punt guard, purple rain).

Finally, yes if the initiative debuffs start stacking this would impact SW in a large way. However because a Scout SW wouldn't have Wrist Slash or Eye Shot slotted, I don't anticipate this would make Scout any better without substantial changes, and bringing up scenarios in the future that also haven't had time to be tested is kind of outside the realm of why Scout changes are necessary.

I've seen skilled BW get away with it in the past and i see no reason why sw couldnt do the same.

I guarantee you a BW or SW running ES and trying to use long casts up close succeeding has nothing to do with the skill of the BW/SW but the lack of skill of the enemies. Trying to do something as silly as that versus competent enemies is guaranteed death and loss. If you want to be gimicky like that just run a WW SM and Morale Pump AM with the SW running FM.

Spoiler:

So I'd like to address the issue which I think there is no issue. Which mean's the suggested solutions are not needed.

The SW has straight up better tools over Big shoota SH's. The playstyle/tactic's are nearly identical. You want a increased damage Boost on your ap damage? I currently run 3 or 4 big shoota SH's in a single group comp for sc's and ORvR. We do very well just on our ap damage alone which is inferior to scout SW. This is with the removal of UF. Your kit on the SW is straight up better then big shoota SH's as far as ap damage in almost every way and you have better tactic's to increase your ap damage...

The only reason why I am bringing up the Big shoota SH group is because I have Less ap damage then Scout SW does and we are doing great with it.

What will satisfy you?

You have fester arrow/flame arrow that can straight up bypass all resistances. On demand 25% damage increase every 30 sec's for 10 sec's with Vengeance of Nagarythe which is baseline... Group Crit increasing tactics, strikethrough tactic's... Hunter's Fervor to mitigate ap issue's.

Your kit is SO FAR SUPERIOR. I don't think SW scout is Lackluster at ALL. I think what we have here is group think dominating over reason.

The only nut punch to SW is what happened in it's off spec's which affect scout SW. The placement of the Heal debuff, the rkd requiring to be spec specific, really hurts a unsupported solo scout SW and a 3 or 4 scout SW group comp. Screwing around with the off-spec's affect's the entire class. There used to be easy utility grabs for SW scout, baseline Rkd and heal debuff. I am pretty sure we didn't even get to discuss those things being moved around either.

A more balanced SW overall spec build would look like this over the current RoR set up.
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=sw;

Since its super off-topic i'll spoiler my response:

Spoiler:

A few key differences between SH and SW for Scout/Big Shoota comes down to the mechanic differences. Big Shoota SH is a more cohesive experience comapred to a Scout SW. Some of the biggest differences are that Horned Squig gives you both the 10% ranged and a RKD (i know its not reliable or great but still better than what SW currently has) OR you can swap to Spiked Squig to grab the 5% Ranged Crit which synergizes well with Big Shoota AND you get auto attack on the move which allows you to keep up a great amount of damage and stay more mobile. (This is going to sound weird but) Without a version of EA for PA grabbing PA is a lot less appealing/attractive so you can spend less points in Big Shoota and your off-spec for both RUN AWAY! and HD so you are more mobile even with a stationary stance. Also, as you know how I feel about it from the other night , Explodin' Errer is 100 ft base compared to FA's 80 ft base (88 ft effective) which again gives a slight edge of mobility to the Big Shootin SH over the Scout SW.

Another big difference is you have access to all of your tools in your kit at all times compared to SW (which doesn't help as much when compared to a Skirmish SW and is a necessary change to keep the SW mechanic the way it is; not complaining about it one way or another just trying to explain to you the advantages of it) which means at any given time you have access to: Ini Debuff, Disarm, Silence, armor debuff, and can use them all without gimping your damage/rotation/play style for 5 s compared to a Scout SW's Armor debuff and silence. And, as you said, with certain RoR changes to SW and their trees it hurts the off-spec for every SW spec (except Assault) which makes Stance Dancing not only no longer mandatory to get the most out of the class but in most cases a sub-optimal way to play the class (though some of this will change with the ES fix to LA).

All in all I think SH has a more cohesive kit for a successful Big Shootin/Scout experience in an open field (you know how I feel how SW can do in a Keep Defense/Attack and edges out SH for sure) in the current state but a few small tweaks to either make EE more sustainable or slightly more cohesion to the Fester build to get better burst rotations will make Scout shine and be a truly viable spec. Either way I do agree that people undersell Scout in a PUG setting (granted on my SW in PUG SC's no matter the build i can usually top damage and DB's so I wouldn't say its ever an effective metric to consider for balance).

[lefze]

Spoiler:

So I'd like to address the issue which I think there is no issue. Which mean's the suggested solutions are not needed.

The SW has straight up better tools over Big shoota SH's. The playstyle/tactic's are nearly identical. You want a increased damage Boost on your ap damage? I currently run 3 or 4 big shoota SH's in a single group comp for sc's and ORvR. We do very well just on our ap damage alone which is inferior to scout SW. This is with the removal of UF. Your kit on the SW is straight up better then big shoota SH's as far as ap damage in almost every way and you have better tactic's to increase your ap damage...

The only reason why I am bringing up the Big shoota SH group is because I have Less ap damage then Scout SW potentially does and we are doing great with it.

What will satisfy you?

You have fester arrow/flame arrow that can straight up bypass all resistances. On demand 25% damage increase every 30 sec's for 10 sec's with Vengeance of Nagarythe which is baseline... Group Crit increasing tactics, strikethrough tactic's... Hunter's Fervor to mitigate ap issue's. You used to have rkd and heal debuff option when targets got close.

Your kit is SO FAR SUPERIOR. I don't think SW scout from a ap damage output is Lackluster at ALL. I think what we have here is community group think dominating over reason. The communities perception that scout SW is weak is unwarranted.

The only nut punch to SW is what happened in it's off spec's which affect scout SW. The placement of the Heal debuff, the rkd requiring to be spec specific, really hurts a unsupported solo scout SW and a 3 or 4 scout SW group comp. Screwing around with the off-spec's affect's the entire class especially the 5 point abilities. How does the current Barrage ability being 5 point help scout? It doesn't. The heal debuff did. There used to be easy utility grabs for SW scout, baseline Rkd and heal debuff. I am pretty sure we didn't even get to discuss those things being moved around either.

A more balanced SW overall spec build would look like this over the current RoR set up. If you don't look it is the original set up.
http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=sw;

This stuff wasn't broken to begin with.
The removal of Rkd being baseline and the placement of heal debuff caused by RoR is causing balance issue's not creating balance.

While the classes can't be compared at all the way you did, and in reality the only thing scout has going for it is resist bypass, I agree with the fact that the spec doesn't lack damage. Doesn't mean getting off that ONE thing the spec has going for it is possible as it is now, reduced cast time is needed to make it playable at all.

[footpatrol2]

So I think the removal of having the Rkd really hurt the scout spec a lot. It was a baseline utility tool able to be used in roughly any spec but required a little stance dancing.

Asking for more ap damage I don't think is the right direction. Scout SW has great ap damage already.

[lefze]

So I think the removal of having the Rkd really hurt the scout spec a lot. It was a baseline utility tool able to be used in roughly any spec but required a little stance dancing.

Asking for more ap damage I don't think is the right direction. Scout SW has great ap damage already.

Read 1a, is there ANY damage included in that part of the proposal? Again, while festering arrow does good burst, you can get it off once every 300 years if you are lucky, and seeing as we don't have a pet, we don't have run and shoot, we don't have **** while trying to get it off, I see no issue in making our rotation more of a once a year thing.

Tl;dr: Scout is HORRIBLE when you can't get off fester.