[Black Orc] You Got Nuffin'

[predathore]

1. Identify the issue.

You Got Nuffin' is a lackluster tactic. The AoE heal sounds nice on paper, but in group play (where it is intended to be used) the heal just won't make a difference when 3-4 people are hitting someone. The only application of this tactic that I can think of is solo play, since in a 1 on 1 that heal CAN actually matter. But then why is it AoE?

2. Explain why it's an issue.

It renders the tactic pretty much useless in group play (where it's intended to be used) ---> nobody picks it.
(I realize other classes have useless tactics too and by no means am I expecting to have this one as a priority)

3. Propose a viable solution to the problem.

-a) Make the tactic only proc while in Da Greenest bellow.(And possibly move it higher in the masterytree, if deemed too strong)
-make the heal last 20 seconds instead of 10 (same amount of heal but takes 2x as long)
-make the heal be able to re-apply itself if procced after 15 seconds (a 5 second window for reapplication) and stack with the
previous heal, also refreshing it. Maximum stacks: 5 ---> You can gain a stack every 15 seconds, but only if you're being
attacked (since it only procs in Da Greenest) ---> Counterplay: don't attack in those 5 seconds.
This might even make Da Greenest bellow a viable choice, since it gets outshined by Da Biggest in every way.

-b) Make the tactic only viable in solo play, removing the AoE but either

b1) increasing the heal amount by 100%

b2) giving it a 10% critical damage reduction
portion

[Penril]

Moving to Discussions.

[footpatrol2]

I agree with the issue. The tactic is a lackluster tactic mainly because it was changed thou by mythic. I think it is important to know the history of the tactic and the assorted changes that have been made over time to this tactic by mythic.

1. Identify the issue.
But then why is it AoE?

This tactic was changed from a Anti-detaunt tactic identical to Unstoppable Fury tactic from the BG to a group heal tactic identical to Bolstering Enchantments on the SM for more mirror pushing by mythic. That's why the tactic is AoE. It was done to mirror the SM. I personally hate mirror pushing because I think it ruins the flavor of the game.


Referenced from prima guide

Solution a
Does not really do anything to change the current state of the tactic.

Spoiler:

This might even make Da Greenest bellow a viable choice, since it gets outshined by Da Biggest in every way.

This is a false statement. Da Greenest bellow Right now is a viable choice depending on group comp. In addition if you only maintain one bellow type and never swap your doing it wrong. If your retreating or pushing into a initial engagment Da Greenest bellow is more useful then stat steal. Only when your on the offensive does Stat steal come into play as a superior bellow.

Solution b
Addresses solo play and should not be considered because balance changes should not be considered for solo play.

Option b1 gives a heal on proc of bellow which... BO's already have in the form of toughness bellow... Not a fan.
Option b2 gives a at chance to proc 10% reduction on crit. This option seems kinda ok I would need to think about it more. Essentially if you like to gamble it alleviates renown points put into futile strikes. So this saves renown points ONLY if you are willing to gamble.

I don't like the proposal's suggested solutions as it tries to adjust it's current form of the tactic.

When mythic changed You got nuffin tactic, which was a useful tactic, they made it basically worthless by mirror pushing. The kit that SM's/Order have access too is just straight up different then what BO's/destro has access too.

I'd like to counter propose to bring back You Got Nuffin back to it's original Anti-detaunt state.

[TenTonHammer]

I feel there would be significant blow back from making such a potent assist dps like BO ignore detaunts additionally it ruins the uniqueness of BG's tactic

i think that suggestion b2, reduce to be crit by 10% is pretty good, for both grp utility and the BO its self whom has rather poor base initiative

[Collateral]

Option 1 is just meh. Why increase the heal duration without increasing the amount itself? Imo the heal is already pretty lackluster. It would be like spreading an already small amount of butter over even more bread.

Would devs consider making it a crit reduction for the entire group? Order has a lot if crit stacking for groups, and now that sw ini debuffs will stack, people will be taking a crap load of dmg. Perhaps make it a 5s duration if 10 is too much, and reduce the value to 5%. I realize the uptime would be pretty much 100% when using da biggest and even da greenest, but if you move the tactic further up I think it would balance it. Switch the positions with snare tactic maybe. Snare is pretty much useless in almost every situation anyway, unless you have multiple bos spamming it while rotating chop fasta. Or if devs think that investment would be too good, put it up even higher, switching with ws buff tactic. That tactic is also pretty useless atm.

I feel the crit reduction for group would play nicely into the flavour of da greenest tree. Tanking with group buffs that make it tankier as well.

[Tesq]

BO as it stand now is the only tank class which dont have any way to mitigate dmg in 2h

-no dmg reudction
-no avoidance buff
-no crit redution

when it cames to shield it's pretty tanky when it cames to 2h it's stuck with the plan block/pary increase which is not that good especially if not paired with the 10% block tactic(so no in 2h mode).

Maybe a def tactic that can be used in 2h would make BO durability more in line with other tanks. So option 2-b, remove the group component leave the heal + add a 10% crit reduction component, anyway dont link it to the war bellow beacause that jimp it.

contr
it may buff the def s+b build of course tough not like s+b BO are super tanky

@gruf i do agree order have a better way to increase crit than destru because is passive but destru can go pretty near

2h bg crit= 2h kobs crit
mara st crit debuff>>>IB st crit buff
sw group buff = ////

if anything group wide should be give it should be max 7% as its now sw tactic, or rather that tactic should be changed, not mirroed...

[Esperflame]

As a BO I do on rare occasion run You Got Nuffin' in its current state. Personally, I find it only really useful for duels. BOs are the only tank that have no real way to increase parry at all except for a shitty tactic based on what stance you're in. It's really bad! With the cooldown added to the snare tactic, only a few BOs run that anymore due to the attack it's tied to being the main aoe BO's spam out to try and steal stats. I agree 100% with the sentiment people are sharing here that as it sits, the tactic is mostly unused except for maybe dueling.

I'm against increasing its healing in anyway though. I also would like to make a counter proposal to the original post though instead of reducing crit damage, have it reduce crit chance.

1) Keep the heal on it and knock it up one notch putting the aoe snare in its place and also make it reduce that groups chance to be crit by 5%.

This would give Destro finally some sort of counter-balance to all the group crit buffs which destro seems to be seriously lacking in. It would be defensive fitting better in the theme of being a tank and would finally give BO that unique group utility without increasing their dmg output which is fairly significant.

2) Keep the heal and grant the Black Orc a personal buff to parry rate of +15%. I say 15% because beyond the super shitty tactic BOs and SMs rarely use, the lowest bonus any other tank gets to parry is the KotBS +15% with Coordination.

[ragafury]

I personally think the tactic is fine cause it has a propose in solo play (grurs solo roaming build) and solo grinding. not balancing around solo play is a pretty lackluster argument cause
the exact same argument was valid when we discussed da toughest bellow (yes, it can only selfheal, but you got to keep in mind that some stuff is just intended for solo play, not everything has to have a purpose in group play. it also is a nice maintainance source for duo roaming with a dps.

besides that there are far worse tactics that have no use / are completly garbage so I can't see the issue; those tactics, just to name them: mor' hardcore, Keep it goin, if you want to tie stuff like Crit decreaser etc. than tie it to tactics which nobody picks. (this would require a new discussion and creative thinking on how to make the tactics viable)

imo for the points invested, the tactic feels about right if you ask me, it's a sittuational tactic but also just costs 4 points. so imo no buff / increase to selfhealing without moving the tactic to Tier 2/3. in fact with reggen gear, reggen weps, toughest bellow and conq procc you can heal yourself a lot in snb. but you have to commit than to that playstyle. just asking for a flat buff to an existing (niche) spec feels wrong.

[Penril]

Thing is this tactic affects groupmates, so clearly it wasn't meant for solo play.

[Collateral]

It's certainly not bad for solo play, as any amount of self healing helps a lot. This is one of those tactics where you're like 'what did the writer want to say?'. Good for solo, sucks for groups. I agree that if the heal got removed, it would definitely hurt solo play, which can be fun from time to time. But since the devs here clearly said that balance is not about solo play, there' s nothing we can do about that.

I don't think giving it a self defense buff would be good. There are other tactics/abilities in other trees that could fill that role, if it ever comes to that. The tactic is meant to be a group support tactic, hence I still think giving crit reduction is a decent idea. I haven't been soloing in quite a while, but since the last changes to middle tree, it's easier to get can't hit me, which aids in your survivability, coupled with regen gear and bellow you should last. So if this tactic got changed, imo solo playing wouldn't get hurt too badly.