[BG] Filled with Fury

[Anomanderake]

Issue:

Filled with fury is the worst crit tatic avaible for tanks. Blorc and SM have 20% on the finisher and 10% on the other skills, with an uptime of 66%. Ib have a flat +15% once he reach 50 hate, and it's core. Chosen have a flat 15%.
It must be procced trought an hate spending ability and is low tier. Spending hate also reduce the efficence of various tatics and abilities. Filled with fury is also a must have in the dps build, due to the sinergy with enraged beating and the related hate building. In the usual rotation, so, it will be procced every 8 or 10 seconds (related on the cooldown you are going for, crimson Death or enraged beating). So, it has an uptime of 70/50% at best (so, if you are not tanking but just DPSing). It also compete with more useful tatics, like hastened doom, terryfing foe, hastened doom, anger drives me, unstoppable fury and rugged in the same build.
Basically, you have to pick up filled with fury to keep hig the hate, but it's an underperforming ability.

Solution:

To keep the BG's playstile (to proc things) there are 3 ways:
1 - Make FiF more lasting. Something like 10s. You still have to spend hate.
2 - Make FiF more powerful. 20% isn't too much (since it must be used with EB, you have just 2s to cast something else, so will be in line with Blorc/Sm one)
3 - Add something to FiF. I don't really have good ideas here, but could be something like regain AP/ drain AP ecc.

[peterthepan3]

Open for discussion. Will be locked in TWO WEEKS from now (21st April).


I ask the following: how often ought you be expending your hate as a Malice BG? Every 5 seconds? Every 10? As a Malice BG, you will normally use EB off CD, weaving it with buffs/debuffs - some of which expend hate. Crimson Death is used off CD, it is on a 10 second CD; Pitiless Strike ought to be used when needed, but that lasts for 20 seconds; Monstrous Rending may see itself used a lot in choke points, etc. Also worth noting that just because an ability has a long duration, this doesn't mean you'll be on the same target for any more than a few seconds at times, which would prompt you to reapply said debuffs on new target - expending hate.

tldr; I feel Malice BG is in a very good place right now, and such a change would serve as a QoL implementation. Given that it requires speccing into, and takes up a tactic slot, I don't see how increasing its duration would have too drastic an effect. However, BG/IB are micromanagement classes by their nature, and having to weave attacks in their rotations in order to maintain optimal efficiency is part and parcel of their playstyle. Is such a change warranted?

[ashton007]

Idk. To me 5 seconds does seem small considering that it takes up a tactic slot as you said, and also costs hatred to keep it maintained as Purake mentioned. All other tanks have access to an easier crit buff.

[Toldavf]

I don't think this change would really alter the potential power of the class to much. Keeping up the crit isn't to much of an issue if you really want to keep it up.

It does however make it easier to play, while it currently can be permanent with skill management after the change it would simply be permanent while in combat and attacking.

It really comes down to how high do you want to set the skill cap on Black guard.

[DokB]

Personally I feel the BG is very well balanced now after the multitude of changes it received and doesn't require a buff. Keeping FwF up 100% is fairly easy to do at the moment as you have a wide range of abilities that require hatred which you will be cycling through. Like peter said, this really only feels like a QoL improvement on a class that doesn't require it (in my opinion). That being said...

Solution 1: 10 seconds seems extremely (almost overly) generous in my opinion. From the solutions presented, I would favour this change since you still have to spec for it and how it synergises with the other skills the BG has. Most of the skills BG has work around debuffs that last +10 seconds and let's be honest here, a 10 second FwF buff is definitely giving it an 100% up time. It does however bring it in line with the other tanks crit tactics like OP stated which is why I would support this solution over the others. I'm only wary of this change since my own opinion/experience tells me the BG is in a good place at the moment.

Solution 2: I don't think this is necessary. I've found the BG doesn't need to compete with the BO/SM (BO only comes out on top due to Skullthumper/Loudmouth/THC but only slightly) since both have very respectable damage. I personally feel the BO/SM should remain the go-to DPS offtanks since they lack a real punt and only really bring damage/select debuffs to the table. Meanwhile BG can still be an extremely durable DPS offtank, while bringing a different skill set to a group. The difference in crit percentage values isn't that extreme since the BG can debuff people a further 10% from CD while the IB can buff anyone with AF.

Solution 3: I'm stumped. Does it really need anything? It already synergises extremely well with EB. If it was given a proc of some kind I feel that it could no longer be an 8 point tactic slot. An AP drain would be pretty neat, but foreseeably broken if paired with Choking Fury/Crushing Anger. AP gain on BG isn't that big of deal since you have ways to deal with it (Endless Pursuit/Driven by Hate/AP pots/Not spamming Murderous Wrath like a caveman), therefore I see AP gain on FwF as unnecessary.

[dansari]

Just as a reminder: just because a class is currently "good" or "viable" doesn't mean we can't discuss changes to underperforming tactics/abilities

[Tesq]

spend hate every 5 sec mean reduces your hate aswell every 5 sec depending on the skill you are gona put in the rotation, if you chain absorb and one betwen CD/FO it's 45 hate every 10 sec if you gona use more likely 2 offensive skill is 60 hate every 10 sec.
(skill you gona use anyway jsut instead 1 after another at intervall of 5 sec) which since both are aoe can be keep up on multiple enemy).

More than anything hate consumption and skill use depend from small scale/orvr, mostrous rending will get spam a lot in orvr in wb fight make the tactic 100% uodate time.....

In small scale it will be quite the opposite.

-imo the crit tactic serve to proc wounds debuff in large fights
-instead the crit tactic serve to proc auto attack aswell in small scale (so crit goes with auto attack increase aswell)

feel like a good and accessory tactic to more complex builds (invest to be able to invest criteria where 1 tactic is needed to make 1 better and both take limited slot), also the only 2 passive 100% update time crits are only on ch/kobs, for difference in offensive build which are stronger on bg. Balanced both for small scale/orvr. The change to CD should not influence the duration here aswell imo.

[ashton007]

spend hate every 5 sec mean reduces your hate aswell every 5 sec depending on the skill you are gona put in the rotation, if you chain absorb and one betwen CD/FO it's 45 hate every 10 sec if you gona use more likely 2 offensive skill is 60 hate every 10 sec.
(skill you gona use anyway jsut instead 1 after another at intervall of 5 sec) which since both are aoe can be keep up on multiple enemy).

More than anything hate consumption and skill use depend from small scale/orvr, mostrous rending will get spam a lot in orvr in wb fight make the tactic 100% uodate time.....

In small scale it will be quite the opposite.

-imo the crit tactic serve to proc wounds debuff in large fights
-instead the crit tactic serve to proc auto attack aswell in small scale (so crit goes with auto attack increase aswell)

feel like a good and accessory tactic to more complex builds (invest to be able to invest criteria where 1 tactic is needed to make 1 better and both take limited slot), also the only 2 passive 100% update time crits are only on ch/kobs, for difference in offensive build which are stronger on bg. Balanced both for small scale/orvr. The change to CD should not influence the duration here aswell imo.

The crit tactic is seperate from the wounds debuff/AA haste tactic. The only use for the crit IMO is using it to build hate through EB and then some fluff damage. The problem is that you have to spend a lot of hate over time to maintain it and it end up being a pain in the ass to keep up when you're also juggling guard/buffs/debuffs/DP/cc etc. All while usually trying to assist. If 10 seconds is too much, then what about 8 seconds? this is EB's CD.

EDIT: Also consider this ability costs points in the malice tree, where as the IB one is a baseline tactic.

[Scrilian]

Looking from IB/BG pairing, one seems to work better at holding mechanic and gaining it at a slower rate(on being hit) and the other works at a higher pace of gaining(on hit+being hit)/expending it, with tactics and abilities to accompany both of these fundamental differences between the two classes.
So to me, Filled With Fury is in line with the theme and the mechanics of the class, while being powerful enough to be considered a viable pick. Just as Sweet Revenge is also conditional, fits the dps-oriented IB nicely, thematically and mechanically does so, and is on the same powerlevel.
I don't see the problem here at all. With proper Dark Protector placement, you can spam hatred-spenders, like Pitiless Strike, with ease and have uptime on the 15% nearly all the time with maybe a few seconds of downtime when applying the non-spender debuffs.
Other tanks are in line, with only BO/SM having higher yet even more conditional one.

[ashton007]

Looking from IB/BG pairing, one seems to work better at holding mechanic and gaining it at a slower rate(on being hit) and the other works at a higher pace of gaining(on hit+being hit)/expending it, with tactics and abilities to accompany both of these fundamental differences between the two classes.
So to me, Filled With Fury is in line with the theme and the mechanics of the class, while being powerful enough to be considered a viable pick. Just as Sweet Revenge is also conditional, fits the dps-oriented IB nicely, thematically and mechanically does so, and is on the same powerlevel.
I don't see the problem here at all. With proper Dark Protector placement, you can spam hatred-spenders, like Pitiless Strike, with ease and have uptime on the 15% nearly all the time with maybe a few seconds of downtime when applying the non-spender debuffs.
Other tanks are in line, with only BO/SM having higher yet even more conditional one.

BO/SM have guaranteed 20% crit on their main damage ability, and it's passive. I'm just saying every other 2h tank has got a passive crit-tactic they don't have to juggle, why does BG?