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DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Proposals after the two week discussion period will be moved to this sub-forum for internal review.

Poll: Which approach do you prefer?

Specialization
72
58%
Hybridization
39
31%
None (explain in comments)
14
11%
Total votes: 125

ajnin420
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#61 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:38 pm

Spoiler:
peterthepan3 wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:27 pm Let's keep it civil.


/yawn you're such a tool


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Drozen
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#62 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:27 pm

ajnin420 wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:23 pm
Spoiler:
Mystry wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:50 am
Valarion wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:40 pm In terms of overall parity these classes are almost perfect and are literally the last two classes that need to be touched. Im also deeply skeptical that WP isnt going to come out ahead of Dok with these adjustments.

Second, imagine a world where every shitty fotm AM is dpsing instead of healing. Now imagine a world where every shitty WP is also dpsing too. Now imagine a world where there are no healers left.
Firstly you're objectively wrong. DPS DoK is at least functional. DPS WP is practically worthless because A. they don't get a free 10% parry from dual wield and B. they don't get twice the covenant/prayer procs because of, again, dual wielding, and C. they don't get the same amount of stats because, you guessed it, dual wielding.
A good 80% of the source of the disparity between WP and DoK is because of dual wield.

Also people who want to DPS are going to DPS. You might as well get used to that, or try and get the devs to just remove wrath and arguably grace altogether.
You couldnt be more wrong. How the flying **** does the 10% parry make a diff in dps? Most melee wps are stacking solid amounts of parry anyway...

We get less stats then a dok? Huh? What? Now you are just making stuff up...


Total crap sir
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Red; This is a subjective thing so you have pro's and con's on both the parry/strikethrue side of it so wont comment on this.

Blue; This is true and simply down to the fact you have two sources of stats sources adding a higher value then the one 2h that wp get;

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you can add the numbers together and I'm kinda certain you will come to the same conclusion.. And dont forget the extra talisman(you do have the option to put dubble of one stat here wich the wp dont have either). Proc's we wont go into.

Hope that explains things Ajnin420
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madrocks
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#63 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:50 am

Good day,

I have another Idea to put on the table.
(:

I was wondering if it is possible to create weapons that give benefit to the dps aspect of a DoK/WP but also lower the healing of them and higher the cooldown/cast time of certain healer abilities.

Lets say just as an example: a WP 2h hammer with +20 dps, more strengh, more weapon skill, +5% parry, more initiative, 7% dmg proc, but then -20% healing, +3 sec on CD and cast time of rezz and cleanse.

Like I said, just an example.. values might be exagerated. Many ways to think of what limits to put on the user wielding such a weapon.

I also wonder if it is possible to make such a weapon useable only with a certain amount of points spend in a specific tree so you block the idea of insane hybrids.

I think it would be way more easy to tweak such weapons then tweak skills and trees. Also it would give the players more freedom to play as they like to do it: Hybrid, Heal, DPS.
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DanielWinner
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#64 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:33 am

madrocks wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:50 am Good day,

I have another Idea to put on the table.
(:

I was wondering if it is possible to create weapons that give benefit to the dps aspect of a DoK/WP but also lower the healing of them and higher the cooldown/cast time of certain healer abilities.

Lets say just as an example: a WP 2h hammer with +20 dps, more strengh, more weapon skill, +5% parry, more initiative, 7% dmg proc, but then -20% healing, +3 sec on CD and cast time of rezz and cleanse.

Like I said, just an example.. values might be exagerated. Many ways to think of what limits to put on the user wielding such a weapon.

I also wonder if it is possible to make such a weapon useable only with a certain amount of points spend in a specific tree so you block the idea of insane hybrids.

I think it would be way more easy to tweak such weapons then tweak skills and trees. Also it would give the players more freedom to play as they like to do it: Hybrid, Heal, DPS.
Balancing with weapons/gear will never be a way.
Currently, the classes have such ways to play: backline healer, hybrid dps (more dps than healing), hybrid healer (more healing than dps). After specialization it will look like this most likely: backline healer (100% healer), dps (80 dps, 20 self heal), hybrid healer (since its melee and will do some dps no matter what: 80 healing, 20 dps). Basically, the idea of hybrid still will be there but in different form because there will never be a hybrid which will deal, for example, 80% dps+80% healing and in certain today’s specs 50% dps + 50% healing is luckluster ( outside solo play ) that we can observe any time currently.
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Rockalypse
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#65 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:00 am

DanielWinner wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:33 am Currently, the classes have such ways to play: backline healer, hybrid dps (more dps than healing), hybrid healer (more healing than dps). After specialization it will look like this most likely: backline healer (100% healer), dps (80 dps, 20 self heal), hybrid healer (since its melee and will do some dps no matter what: 80 healing, 20 dps). Basically, the idea of hybrid still will be there but in different form because there will never be a hybrid which will deal, for example, 80% dps+80% healing and in certain today’s specs 50% dps + 50% healing is luckluster ( outside solo play ) that we can observe any time currently.
Concept is understandable, as I assume there is already thought through proccess that classes will go through and this thread will only lead to minor adjustmets made to mentioned proccess - can you tell if team had skill rework in mind as most melee healing skills require you to do actual damage and scale from it in %?

Edit x3: grammar, wording
Last edited by Rockalypse on Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2773

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#66 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:32 am

Nomather what you do in terms of changes I think you gonna end up pissing a substantial amount of players off. The classes are pretty well ballanced atm. Not to good, not to crappy.

The only thing lacking is, imo, a decent AoE utillity for dps WP if you wanna play one in Warbands.
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HtGeist
Posts: 52

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#67 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:47 am

Whats lacking is gear outside of the goddamn sc's...and in general fixing of destro classes up the power creep to match the order goodlife changes and easy speccing...at that point where doks can aquire gear just as easily as wp's and we can see what well geared of both classes can do with a blanced army behind them,you can tinker with abilities...atm dok need to be goods to survive vs the engi/am/bw crap spam ranged wall of death..where wp can roam around only worrying bout the handfull of die hard sorcs roaming...my 2 cents...but since the one doing the tinkering plays order...it seems uphill.
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Nidwin
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#68 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:48 am

DanielWinner wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:33 am
Spoiler:
madrocks wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:50 am Good day,

I have another Idea to put on the table.
(:

I was wondering if it is possible to create weapons that give benefit to the dps aspect of a DoK/WP but also lower the healing of them and higher the cooldown/cast time of certain healer abilities.

Lets say just as an example: a WP 2h hammer with +20 dps, more strengh, more weapon skill, +5% parry, more initiative, 7% dmg proc, but then -20% healing, +3 sec on CD and cast time of rezz and cleanse.

Like I said, just an example.. values might be exagerated. Many ways to think of what limits to put on the user wielding such a weapon.

I also wonder if it is possible to make such a weapon useable only with a certain amount of points spend in a specific tree so you block the idea of insane hybrids.

I think it would be way more easy to tweak such weapons then tweak skills and trees. Also it would give the players more freedom to play as they like to do it: Hybrid, Heal, DPS.
Balancing with weapons/gear will never be a way.
Currently, the classes have such ways to play: backline healer, hybrid dps (more dps than healing), hybrid healer (more healing than dps). After specialization it will look like this most likely: backline healer (100% healer), dps (80 dps, 20 self heal), hybrid healer (since its melee and will do some dps no matter what: 80 healing, 20 dps). Basically, the idea of hybrid still will be there but in different form because there will never be a hybrid which will deal, for example, 80% dps+80% healing and in certain today’s specs 50% dps + 50% healing is luckluster ( outside solo play ) that we can observe any time currently.
Just curious but can you please elaborate on your backline healer concept for DoK.
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DanielWinner
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Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#69 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:57 am

Nidwin wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:48 am
DanielWinner wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:33 am
Spoiler:
madrocks wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:50 am Good day,

I have another Idea to put on the table.
(:

I was wondering if it is possible to create weapons that give benefit to the dps aspect of a DoK/WP but also lower the healing of them and higher the cooldown/cast time of certain healer abilities.

Lets say just as an example: a WP 2h hammer with +20 dps, more strengh, more weapon skill, +5% parry, more initiative, 7% dmg proc, but then -20% healing, +3 sec on CD and cast time of rezz and cleanse.

Like I said, just an example.. values might be exagerated. Many ways to think of what limits to put on the user wielding such a weapon.

I also wonder if it is possible to make such a weapon useable only with a certain amount of points spend in a specific tree so you block the idea of insane hybrids.

I think it would be way more easy to tweak such weapons then tweak skills and trees. Also it would give the players more freedom to play as they like to do it: Hybrid, Heal, DPS.
Balancing with weapons/gear will never be a way.
Currently, the classes have such ways to play: backline healer, hybrid dps (more dps than healing), hybrid healer (more healing than dps). After specialization it will look like this most likely: backline healer (100% healer), dps (80 dps, 20 self heal), hybrid healer (since its melee and will do some dps no matter what: 80 healing, 20 dps). Basically, the idea of hybrid still will be there but in different form because there will never be a hybrid which will deal, for example, 80% dps+80% healing and in certain today’s specs 50% dps + 50% healing is luckluster ( outside solo play ) that we can observe any time currently.
Just curious but can you please elaborate on your backline healer concept for DoK.
Any dok/wp that is specced for healing (1st is focused on it and book/chalice is required) and stays in backline healing his party who fight enemies in the meantime. Basically, they only range heal.
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kkprfx
Posts: 175

Re: DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

Post#70 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:05 am

HtGeist wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:47 am Whats lacking is gear outside of the goddamn sc's...and in general fixing of destro classes up the power creep to match the order goodlife changes and easy speccing...at that point where doks can aquire gear just as easily as wp's and we can see what well geared of both classes can do with a blanced army behind them,you can tinker with abilities...atm dok need to be goods to survive vs the engi/am/bw crap spam ranged wall of death..where wp can roam around only worrying bout the handfull of die hard sorcs roaming...my 2 cents...but since the one doing the tinkering plays order...it seems uphill.
That has nothing to do with class balance.
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