[Dev] Tank morale overhaul

[Gargis]

Have you considered that s/b tanks like M3? Already, I do low damage and use that ability to supplement my dps.

I find it paradoxical that you are nerfing tank morales and are trying to get ppl to play s/b tanks. have you considered that ppl dont get the M4s in the respective trees because acquiring them will do serious utility damage for groups when deviating from traditional builds.

The only thing the above changes encourage me to do is not play s/b tank. Rather, reroll 2H knight.

[Skullgrin]

Well, here are a few of my thoughts about the proposed changes...

General for tanks:

M4
Immacule defence will be lowered from 75% to 60%. This morale is simply dwarfing the other morales and is still strong at 60. It should be worth getting the speccable M4s.

The main reason that most tanks take Immaculate Defense is that there really is no other option. You haven't activated the renown tactic that give players a 30th point to use when selecting Mastery abilities. Without that tactic spec-ing that deeply into a single tree simply isn't viable. Here, let me give you an example for Chosen - this is my current Mastery build - RoR.builders - Chosen.

In order for me to get the M4 ability in the Path of Dread I would have to give up at least 3 other abilities in order to get it, or alternatively give up the Quake ability. Giving up Quake means giving up my main way to combat ANY kiting class, which to my mind makes that type of build nonviable. I also look at giving up 3 abilities as being bad, as it reduces the options that I would have in exchange for an M4 ability that would be rarely used. I don't have much experience with most other classes regarding this type of build conundrum, however I'd be willing to bet that all other classes have similar problems regarding end-game builds.

Adding the 30th Mastery point back in via tactic would lessen, but not eliminate the fact that Immaculate Defense is the most used M4.

M3
NEW ABILITY: Hold the line: Will be an instant 30% HTL stack for 12 sec to all members in 100 feet, will require a shield. This is as tanks are support when using a shield and not a dps. This is given as raze will have a 2h requirement.

Raze: Will have a requirement of a 2h weapon. This as tanks with shields are support and not dps.

Well, it is an interesting way to further differentiate between 2H and SnB archetypes, however I think you're gonna see the same type of blowback that you experienced with the guard change. Doesn't really affect me though, so I'm kinda meh on it...

M2
Distracting Bellow: Its range will be increased to a 45 feet cone and reduction reduced to 35% instead of 50%. Bigger range to make it easier to hit with consistently but less power in return.

This a straight up nerf to this ability, and trying to say otherwise is at the very least disingenuous. The range on Distracting Bellow is currently 100 feet, so saying that 45 feet is an increase is just wrong, it is a nerf. Changing the damage reduction from 50% to 35% is also a direct nerf. The best use of it currently is casting it on back line RDPS, which will be much more difficult with the reduced range, another indirect nerf. The most likely scenario where it would now be used is on front line tanks, who do quite a bit less damage already. Looking at this, I personally will probably just refrain from using ANY M2, and just wait for my morale to increase to M3.

Specific Career changes:

Chosen
M4
Warping embrace: 1200 damage in a line with 40% snare over 15 sec. Damage was crap.
Shatter faith: Total rework to match solar flare. 30 feet aoe with 800 damage and drains 1200 morale of all hit. Original implementation was crap as it was the damage with a simple dispel.

M2
Tzeentch Amplification: We are open for suggestions on this one, its rather bad as it is and would be up for a change that fits with the theme and name.

I will only comment on the Chosen changes, as those are to only ones I feel qualified to comment on.

Both M4 abilities suffer from what I expounded on earlier in this post, no need to reiterate that. I do like the damage increase for Warping Embrace, makes that ability more viable. Shatter Faith is OK as a direct mirror, although I would be kind of interested to see the dispel changed to make it remove ALL buffs on those in range - it would definitely cause panic in the Order ranks then.

Tzeentch's Amplification really isn't as bad as you make it out to be (as long as you are grouped with a healer). My suggestion to buff it up somewhat would be to add a potion like heal effect to it, something that restores around 1000-2000 health. this would make it a nice utility ability, and give you a reason to slot it when not grouped.

So there you go, my thought on this. Feel free to pick them apart at your leisure...

[Marawo]

Chosen
Tzeentch Amplification: This ability is actually super good for 2h superpunt chosen a kite grp, imo needs no change

General
Distracting Bellow: Changing the damagereduction value to get it more in line with m2 placement, yes
Changing the 100ft ranged 30ft area around target to a cone, big NO

If you want to damage debuff enemies in a cone use challenge. Using this morale is not harder because you need a target.
Changing it to a cone would make every tank in a siege situation to either a ram or HTL bot. This moral helps alot against rdps on walls.

[Wam]

terrible changes and not balanced at all if you push ahead with some of these

the disparitybetween realms and some classes will become bigger than it already is

Order > Destro... GG zerg it up lads

not enough to make fort posterns open, and entrances bigger... these are all pro zerg changes, when are the anti zerg changes coming?

Spoiler:

on top of recent morale changes where engi's actually get more useful morales... I see the pendulum swing even more to Order
with knight still having okay damage and root from m3... but you take the CC from bork its beyond my freaking mind why you would want to do this... so you want to take more tools away from the side that is getting underdog population majority of the time and keep more for order ...

At the current rate I will just make warband on the most zerging side and zerg it up like everybody and their mother seems to be doing that is what these changes seem to be catered too or just be done, with little idea of the impact and synergies and ripple effect...

I don't see why things get nerfed, instead of area's that need improving just get improved and made more viable... there is too many contradictions i dont see the clear vision set out with this because so many things which are called "weak" are not... and things which are useful get removed or replaced with something not useful it all.

why do tanks get punished again, raze moved to m3 in the first place, now removed from snb... without even realising the mechanics and how the game was designed in the first place... Destro had faster morales and better CC, order had stronger core (more raw damage, more healing)

Now you want to mess around with the DNA and break the game instead of enhance it... why even bother put effort into being organised when its just going to be pug/zerg ville ... no looking at AOE CAP to combat zerg? just take away few tools that have lost meaning and importance because of previous tinkering and repositioning

shouldn't we be looking at population and zerging issues more than morales that been okay and the status quo for long time... but now you take from one side, give more to the other...

its okay for white lions to 3 hit squishies... but Morales which there are counters to get and already have been nerfed get nerfed some more and removed from warband play... which puts more FAVOUR to ORDER... I guess time to make us order only and not care about balancing pop if no body else cares about such things in the game.

[Eathisword]

IB M2 - Skin of Iron

This is the only ''oh ****'' button 2H IB have. And its M2. And last only 5s. As others have mentionned. It is perfect tradeoff from SnB who get a 10s frontal immunity to damage.

IB M1 - Rock clutch
IB son't need more damage. It needs more utility. Rock Clutch at 10s was worth taking over Champion Challenge cause you could keep moving. Losing 5s (compared to Champion's challenge) of damage unloading in the back of you FF target for 300 morale xtra is very bad. At 5s, it would be shelved, as 300 xtra morale damage ain'T even worth an AA from your dps assist.

BG M1 - Banish Weakness

This is a very seriously strong M1, not weak at all. when timed well it can heal for 3k and upward. So not ''weak'' heal.

[Feanor]

Why nerf Blackguards more? Banish Weakness was good without being OP in a class that desperately needs some way to heal itself in a bad situation. If you want to remove or change an ability on the basis of it having a weak heal, why has Feeding on Weakness survived for this long? It's heal component is a hilariously bad joke.

[HongTen]

Why nerf Blackguards more? Banish Weakness was good without being OP in a class that desperately needs some way to heal itself in a bad situation. If you want to remove or change an ability on the basis of it having a weak heal, why has Feeding on Weakness survived for this long? It's heal component is a hilariously bad joke.

damn thats a great point!
bring this guy whatever he wants.

[detharin]

Thoughts on black orc since that is what i know.

Black Orc:
M4
Puddle ‘o Muck: Change to a instant 1200 dmg but keep snare. Damage was crap.

Damage is too low to justify and if an AOE snare is required we can pick up the tactic in the boss tree for cheaper than the 3 point investment needed to take this. . Even with Raze proposed being changed to 2h only, deafening bellow is also 1200 at the m3 level. Would not be taken or used over immaculate defense even at 60%

Can't touch us: Will be changed to instantly give party in 100 feet 200 AP as well as a 4500 absorb shield. Made to match shield of Valor as it was clearly stronger.

The 13 point ability in the toughest tree is useless until TotVl comes out and only if the bug with the last boss is intact. Until then 3s of 10% reduced damage and CC immunity on a Gud plan ability with a 20s cool down is not useful. While we can use changing the plan in order to get to Gud plan, if we are trying to actively prevent cc this stance dance of two buttons + lag means it is very difficult to react to stop a CC bomb. The 10% less damage for 3 seconds is far to short to justify the point cost. Additionally the Blorc version has a 20s cooldown while the career builder for the SM version lists no cooldown. I am not sure if this is accurate. As a 20s cooldown it does not not provide enough of an impact to justify the 13 points necessary. Considering the 10 point talent mor hardcore provides a single target knockback to two abilities despite blorcs having an baseline AOE knockback. We have plenty of ways to hand out immunities, and a tactic slot for medium single target is too high a cost. Therefore the toughest is basically a dead tree after 10 points for NIDF. No one is going to pay 6 points to give a group a 4500 absorb shield when a 60% immaculate defense will serve a similar purpose.

Suggestion-Adjust this tree to give more value to tanks by removing it from the plan system like other buffs so we dont have to juggle changing the plan with this ability to reactively block opening counters. Additionally either increase the damage reduction duration from 3s-10s, lower the cooldown of the ability to 10s.


Yer nothing: Entire rework will be 300 dmg each 0.5 sec with micro knockback in a 30 feet range. 3 Sec duration. Original implementation was simply crap with no damage and a small morale drain.

The yer Nothing morale drain was very handy for removing orders ability to use M4s on fort pushes and was a viable alternative to immaculate defense. By removing morale on ticks it prevented players from using their M4s, and the continuous ticking of morale drain prevented those players from using their m4s at all during the duration of the debuff. I found it very useful during forts to be able to rush in right before the called push/ rush into the enemy zerg and blow it minimizing the amount of m4s my team would face. This would probably the single best Blorc M4 for group plan outside immaculate defense. With Waagh, and more chopping dem being excellent abilities it was easier to make the sacrifice of 3 points to pick it up. Especially with da toughest being lackluster after 10 point as above.

Additionally with tree hit combo being restricted to 2 handers only, which hurts SnB blorcs since we lack a single target high damage ability that does not grant immunities, you are either going all the way up to you wot for the damage/defenses or not touching this tree at all. You wot is arguable one of the best tank abilities in the game even if the rest of the tree is not as useful for SnB. 15% to all defenses and armor allows for greater survivability, and beats anything offered by the toughest in terms of increased tanking.

Our da boss tree is probably our strongest, even if Rock Ard is listed as having half the absord of our SM equivalent at the same level in the same tree.

Finally Blorcs already have an AOE mircoknockback and we generally do not want to be knocking people away in AOEs and passing out immunities. Especially for a "micro knockback" when another class could instead use a macroknockback.

Suggestion-If you feel the tick is not large enough change it to removing 25% of morale in a 30 ft radius. Otherwise feel free to leave it alone as is since the proposed change would not be taken vs Immaculate defense.

M3
Deafening bellow: Silence component will be removed and replaced with a 1sec buildup increase debuff for 10 secs. Slightly longer duration but made worse as a 5 sec silence to all hit in an aoe is very strong and made all other choices no choice.

Silence only impacts some classes and not others. Additionally many people use raze for damage. With the proposed changes neither matters. The proposed ability of hold the line whether it stacks with actual hold the line or not would grant a huge dodge/disrupt chance to a group and would be far superior to a cooldown increase regardless of situation rendering the proposed change meaningless as it would make all other choices no choice. If the hold the line proposal does not go through m3 would become a dead level for SnB tanks. We would be better using M2s or holding out for immaculate. A 1s buildup in a game with a 1.15s GCD means the buildup has even less an impact than the 5s silence.

Suggestion-3s silence that ignores immunities or a 3 knockdown so ability affects all classes equally.

More easily how about giving us the SM version of bladeshield since our ability is being gutted for being too strong, where as a 3600 absorb shield and 600 damage to attackers would be a beautiful tank ability in a variety of situations that I would gladly take over deafening bellow.

M2
Walk it off!: toughness component removed and will be replaced by reduction of crit damage by 25% for 20 sec. Toughness is less effective and this change would make it interesting in the crit meta that DPS dealers usually build on.

Distracting bellow reduces all damage by 50% for 10s. This would reduce more damage than a 25% crit damage for 20s since the latter ability would only work against crits, and not impact not crit damage at all. This new walk if off would not be taken in favor of distracting bellow. Additionally while this new walk it off would only buff your group, distracting bellow would debuff enemies meaning they would do less damage to your WB.

Suggestion-How about making toughness more effective overall as damage has outpaced it. Having a morale level with 2 ways to reduce damage means one of them is a non choice. Walk it off could instead provide a speed increase of 40% to your group, and anytime a group member is hit they would heal for <value> health. This could provide a way for MDPS to help close with enemies, as well as mitigate some damage. This would differ from the existing options of shield wall which is a self buff, and bellow which is an enemy debuff.

M1
Quit yer squabblin’: Total rework, single target silence for 7 sec. We wanted to give the BO some single target utility fitting for a M1 which can stop a healer for 7 seconds.

We can already stop a healer for 4 with a baseline silence or knock them down for 3 with a knockdown. Black orcs already have plenty of ways of passing out CC immunity. Unless it immunities it is not worth it. Provides minimal group utility and the armor debuff from demolishing strike would allow us to assist dps in killing the healer faster, or champions challenge would prevent them from running away. An extra 3 seconds on a silence on a target that likely will already have immunities in a fight that has gone on long enough to build m1 would not be useful.

Suggestion- If you are going to do a crit damage reduction this would be the place for it. We have demolishing strike for an enemy debuff, and champions challenge for utility. An m1 that reduces crit damage would make for a valuable mid fight, and lock us out of the other options meaning it would be high risk vs reward ability. Do you blow the m1 and hope the fight is still going 1 minute later to use anything else, or hold off and wait for the m2 or m3 to turn the tide.

Additional thoughts- Make tree hit combo useable by SnB again as relegating us to support as SnB we are bad at support pressure on healers because all of our high damage best Plan abilities give out immunities. The same immunities that an m1 silence would give. We either do not use out higher damage abilities, or we give out immunities like candy. Tree hit combo allowed SnB tanks to apply more pressure without those immunities.

Second Give Toughest tree a defense buff on par with it you wot or rework it to provide more tank benefits. Otherwise toughest will remain largely a dead tree after 10 points. 15% defenses, and more armor is far better for a tank than anything else available, anywhere. With the proposed changes to the m4 trees none would ever be worth the points investment in terms of group utility vs a 60% immaculate defense.

[adamthelc]

People are bound to be upset when you take away some of their favorite toys. I dont have any major problems with the class specific morale changes.

My biggest concern is the M3 changes. Dont mind the raze requirement. The HTL morale is something I dont personally like though. I am assuming it would stack with other HTL effects, I dont see the purpose otherwise. There is already so much ranged attack defense adding more doesnt seem fun. I would rather hit and do no damage than constantly be dodged or disrupted.

I am not saying it's terrible the way its proposed, but I think it would be less obnoxious if it was a DR against ranged/casted or a bubble against ranged/casted attacks. Kind of like the healer M3 but against the opposite damage types.

I also prefer Distracting Bellow in it's current form, dont think it needs to be changed. I dont feel that strongly about it though, so I wouldnt be terribly upset with the change.

TA for Chosen could instead make healers in party heal for more or casters do more magic damage. Or you could add a heal proc to heals and/or damage proc to spells.

No problem with changing wings of heaven. It's a fun ability they have always had, but I dont think it's in anyway tied to their identity. It also isnt going to make or break the class, so I dont really care if it stays or goes. No ideas on how to change it without just making an entirely new ability.

[Detangler]

TA on chosen was never as useful as shield wall on a S/B. Hoping the new M2 is also good for support tank types.

As for M4s - they need to be worth giving up all the other useful things you can spec for in other trees AND not so powerful that people scream for nerfs. I wish you the best of luck in this endeavor!