[Dev] Tank morale overhaul

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Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#41 » Wed May 08, 2019 12:58 am

Here are my thoughts....
Immacule defence will be lowered from 75% to 60%. This morale is simply dwarfing the other morales and is still strong at 60. It should be worth getting the speccable M4s.
15% reduction is a bit meh, so i don't take much issue with it, i don't think it was over performing though, most organised warbands use it in very situational battles and usually its all about seeing who can out blast the other.
NEW ABILITY: Hold the line: Will be an instant 30% HTL stack for 12 sec to all members in 100 feet, will require a shield. This is as tanks are support when using a shield and not a dps. This is given as raze will have a 2h requirement.
30% HTL stack, nope, entirely useless, especially when it comes to an M3, if a warband is doing what its supposed, being comprised of 8 tanks, regularly HTL this won't be used, you could argue it would free up 12s of tanks being able to do other things whilst its up instead of HTL but nah.

The current climate is not good to make such a change to have only 2h have raze, its already extreamly difficult to couterpush zerg blobs, especially when one or two organised warbands are herding them, you take away raze, you kill any chance of a consistant counter play at all, if objective is only have one blob overpower and win against underdogs, removing raze will do that because 2h tanks will never be viable vs the amount of range that is currently popular.
Distracting Bellow: Its range will be increased to a 45 feet cone and reduction reduced to 35% instead of 50%. Bigger range to make it easier to hit with consistently but less power in return.
Just a straight up nerf, pure and simple, will only hit front liners, leaving the most powerful dps in game at the back, able to continue blasting away.
Puddle ‘o Muck: Change to a instant 1200 dmg but keep snare. Damage was crap.
Can't touch us: Will be changed to instantly give party in 100 feet 200 AP as well as a 4500 absorb shield. Made to match shield of Valor as it was clearly stronger.
Yer nothing: Entire rework will be 300 dmg each 0.5 sec with micro knockback in a 30 feet range. 3 Sec duration. Original implementation was simply crap with no damage and a small morale drain.
Puddle of muck, it is better it does more direct damage instead of a dot but your never going to have a BO with no waaagh! and waaagh! tactic in an organised warband and even at rr70 you can't have that plus the m4, so nope to that.
Can't touch us, good change but again, same issue, no waaagh! and waaagh! tactic, no thanks.
Yer nothing, i can't think of any reason why i would use this, damage improvements but assuming the kb is even undefendable a small kb like that ain't worth blowing for an M4 and no morale drain, so just a straight up nerf.
Deafening bellow: Silence component will be removed and replaced with a 1sec buildup increase debuff for 10 secs. Slightly longer duration but made worse as a 5 sec silence to all hit in an aoe is very strong and made all other choices no choice.
I can see reasoning behind this, once you hit a backline of healers, 5's is too long a silence to have but i would argue implenting scalers to increase the duraton on the amount of enemies than removing it entirely, chosens already have aura that gives build up times increaser, will this stack and also You said nothing about the damage, does it still deal 1200, if so what happens to your implementation of the 2h tank only raze?
Walk it off!: toughness component removed and will be replaced by reduction of crit damage by 25% for 20 sec. Toughness is less effective and this change would make it interesting in the crit meta that DPS dealers usually build on.
I'm actually ok with this one, good job.
Quit yer squabblin’: Total rework, single target silence for 7 sec. We wanted to give the BO some single target utility fitting for a M1 which can stop a healer for 7 seconds.
Will be handy for BO taking on healers in 1v1, would rather see the morale changed to something fitting their support side of things like, group damage buff to melee attacks.
Warping embrace: 1200 damage in a line with 40% snare over 15 sec. Damage was crap.
Shatter faith: Total rework to match solar flare. 30 feet aoe with 800 damage and drains 1200 morale of all hit. Original implementation was crap as it was the damage with a simple dispel.
Solar flare for chosen, well sure, ok, kinda sucks for order though seeing as they don't have morale tactics and can't build m4 as fast as destruction, maybe this needs a rethink.
Tzeentch Amplification: We are open for suggestions on this one, its rather bad as it is and would be up for a change that fits with the theme and name.
Its not a terrible ability ,if you are running in a group its actually pretty damn good if you find yourself spamming everything you have left to survive being pressured and makes healers life easier, i used to use it randomly in scenarios, it works. But if you are wanting it changed how about...

Deamonic tethering: within 30ft, deamonic tethers shoot at your foes from your body, sapping their life force, granting health back 6s in this time, tethered enemies are snared by 40%, tethers can be broken if you move or are moved.

Thats about as much as i can be bothered typing at this time, its late, conclusion, we need a meta to apply to organised players to counter the zerg blob mentality, give advanced tools to advanced users, not dumb everything down to a point where no one can reach higher skill brackets.
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Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#42 » Wed May 08, 2019 1:33 am

some of these changes would do too much damage to classes indentities or DNA as others have put it and we've had far too much of that already, homogenization should not be the goal

also as others have said banish weakness/tzeentchs amplification are awesome not crap need no change. removing raze from snb good god just delete shields. i wouldn't use the htl morale. even as a destro main i'd be sad to see no escape go

i don't see a good reason for any of these changes really. i thought the plan was to replace most specabble m4s with abilities so who cares if nobody uses them?
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Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#43 » Wed May 08, 2019 1:50 am

I agree with the notion that the spec-able morale 4 abilities need a lot of work. Most are junk and simply not worth the point investment. The same can be said for many core and class specific morales and I would 100% support seeing these changes made.

I have no issue with lowering the effectiveness of the core m4 immaculate defense as well with the way it stays with other buffs and debuffs it is a tremendous powerful core morale which makes it hard to balance spec'd morale abilities.

But adding a 2h requirement to raze is a no go for me. Changing raze to M3 is still a mistake to me. Raze is a warband morale, for use in morale bombs. A WB tank is not going 2h and while their job is to soak damage, reduce spike, and provide a front line damaging morales give them the chance to have a little bit of fun. To bite back, get some kills, and often times be more than simply a guard / htl bot in most fights.

In 90% of WB fights you will not see M4, or even M3. Fights are often over before then, or morale drains hit you, or combat is lost. When Raze went from M2 to M3 it will took away a fun aspect of play for WB tanks. With it going 2h it strips it all together, and now you only get a shot at a damaging morale if you are lucky to have a core one like BO at M3, or if you spec M4 like IB with axe slam. Even with max + morale gear you are just not going to get it that often.

If anything I would recommend raze move back down to M2. It was and is a well balanced morale. It does good damage, but needs to be stacked to be effective. It is not purely instant so people can move to avoid it, and punts / staggers / interrupts can break it. I was a great WB tool for tanks that made being a WB tank a lot more fun to play.

Everyone loves those cheeky nights where a scrub tanks steals like 8 kbs with raze, jumping around like a hero. Putting it on 2h, and keeping it locked away at m3 for most fights killed something fun, and well balanced imho.

One thing to also consider is adding in morale utility to morale. Morale drains are locked away at M4, where they hardly see use. If your goal is to shake up the meta, and dynamic of WB play, then you might consider putting a few at M2. That would make a fundamental shift to the current morale meta's.

Is there a reason to push all of these changes at once? Could you focus on the worst of the spec'd abilities and go one at a time with a feedback driven result? If we see all of these at once it is a mountain to deal with, and it will take ages to really test evaluate and give meaningful feedback on. A slower cadence with a few morales at a time would give more time for measured feedback.

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Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#44 » Wed May 08, 2019 2:48 am

Natherul wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 5:42 pm

Banish Weakness: Healing component removed and instead gives 20 hate instantly. The heal was crap and with the hate increase you can dump hate and then use this M1 to get defensive tactics again and/or another hate dump.
What the hell, man. Banish Weakness is very good while also being balanced. It relies on player awareness to use at the right time to maximize its healing. Absolute 0 reasons to change it.

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Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#45 » Wed May 08, 2019 2:50 am

I'll just comment on the BO changes.

Puddle o' Muck: Still won't be used, Deafening Bellow will always be used instead. If you really wanted an aoe snare, i'd say there's probably better ways to get it than a m4

Yer Nothing - Can't Touch Us: Okay changes, need to be test ingame to form a decent opinion on them.

Walk It Off: Great change. I always felt like the Toughness wasn't doing the job. Much better to use Quit yer Squabblin'

Quit Yer Squabblin': Completely unneeded change. BOs already have a single target silence and ways to harass healers, but lack defence (Talking about 2h BO here, which i suppose is the target of this change). The group-wide buff provided both good survivability and utility at the same time. Change should be reverted imo.

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Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#46 » Wed May 08, 2019 3:15 am

I would like to chime in a little.

I think the popular opinion for BG morale 1 in which you cleanse yourself and heal is excellent where it is. You don’t need any more hate steroids and I can’t think of any other morale that attaches a class mechanic to itself. You don’t jump to da best plan on any BO morale, you don’t activate a 4th aura on chosen/knight morale. To attach hate to a morale is just out of place.

The iron breaker 10 second disarm thing seems interesting mixed feelings though, and I like the buffs to the heal on bg morale 3. I think tzeetch amplification is really good and if you don’t think so you should test it in game it’s an amazing morale and a life saver. Happy to see some order nerfs. BO doesn’t need a silence morale they have a silence ability at lvl 40? Maybe tweaks to that ability are better than changes to a morale.

Orders gap closers need to be checked. If there is synergy with certain comps by gap closing that’s fine but I don’t think the tank being able to suddenly fly to your back line and cc it is fair. Making the snare cleans able is a fair compromise but I’m happy to see this gone, it was a cool mechanic but order can already pounce and shadow dash and their tank can fly, personally I’d like to see it go but if it’s so detrimental to the class DNA as stated before I think slow reduction and cleans-ability is fair compromise while buffing BO a little.

I thought I had something more to say but I think the changes are pretty good. Like the new discussions hopefully others will stop acting childish and start being more helpful and constructive

Edit: I think there is a lot of knowledgeable people in this thread and to head their word and advice and expertise would be valuable to the ROR team
Last edited by Stophy22 on Wed May 08, 2019 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#47 » Wed May 08, 2019 3:55 am

Dont remove Wings of Heaven, nerf the aoe snare and it's fine.

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Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#48 » Wed May 08, 2019 6:04 am

reminder to everyone that we read all byút unconstructive posts and personal attacks of any kind is not allowed and will be moderated.

Ther post is made to collect feedback and make revisions based on good constructive feedback before any implementation.

The reasoning for tzeentch amplification and banish weakness being weak in the initial statement is that they are morale abilities and yet they are dependant on something external to be effective at all. Yes they can be very strong if timed absolutely right
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Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#49 » Wed May 08, 2019 6:40 am

I predominately play tanks.

Here are the thoughts.
mmacule defence
Sure, whatever

NEW ABILITY: Hold the line:
Un-needed but sure.
Raze: Will have a requirement of a 2h weapon.
Sure I guess? I don't know why RoR is so dead set on trying to make a big separation on 2hnder to s/b here.

Distracting Bellow:
The suggested change is actually a pretty large nerf and also decreases the effectiveness of tanks in keeps. Old Distracting bellow can be placed 100 ft out and you can actually damage reduce the backline. This morale is extremely flexible. The suggested is not flexible, especially if you don't lift the aoe cap for the morale.

Specific Career changes:
Black Orc:
Puddle ‘o Muck: Change to a instant 1200 dmg but keep snare. Damage was crap.
The damage was 1800 when you placed spec points into it. Btw DoT morale was always good just not king like instant damage. The point of these type of morale's is the uncleansable morale snare, the damage is just icing.
Can't touch us:
Sure I guess, Mirror pushing though... ... ... :(
Yer nothing:
You thought Yer Nothing was crap? On a class that can self feed morale and get outside morale feeds quickly... It's a Beefcakes AE morale drain with AE dot damage to boot... ... ... Granted it's not Solar flare morale drain but it's still good. Likely you don't have the morale drain set correctly. The drain should roughly drain 1800 morale over 12 sec's. So it ticks at 360 morale drain per tic for 5 ticks counting the first tic of zero. In a organzied vs organized wb fight where morales matter a lot this morale is very important. What is suggested is a massive nerf in comparison.

Deafening bellow:
Disagree with the change, The old morale is great as is.

Walk it off!:
Disagree with the change. The perk of the old morale is that it is a morale toughness buff which stacks with other toughness buffs.

Quit yer squabblin’:
Disagree with the change. I think increasing the % bonus say to 20% parry and dodge would be good but a rework is not needed.

Warping embrace: 1200 damage in a line with 40% snare over 15 sec. Damage was crap.
The damage was 1800 when you placed spec points into it.
Shatter faith:
Mirror Pushing :(

Tzeentch Amplification:
Disagree with the change. Old morale is a great morale for keep fights
Blast of hatred: Total rework. 1200 dmg instantly and knockback in a 40 feet line. Damage was crap.
The damage was 1800 when you placed spec points into it.

Khaines warding:
In a tank wall with cross guarded tanks, Khaines warding + None shall pass ability = morale bomb immunity for 10 sec's basically. The point of the middle tree and for most middle tree's on all the tanks is for keep fights/tank walls.

In Malekeiths name:
The damage was 1800 when you placed spec points into it. The old morale is a great morale bomb component for warband play, the silence was just icing. With the reduction on damage the m4 is pretty ghetto. :(

Armor of eternal servitude:
Good change :)

Banish Weakness:
The old morale is AMAZING. Please don't change it

Strength in numbers:
Sure whatever
Earthen renewal:
I guess the change is ok ish?? I wound't remove the ap feed component though

Skin of iron:
The old morale was great... ... ... why change it?

Rock Clutch:
The old morale was great... ... ... why change it?

Knight of the blazing sun:
Flawless Defense:
Disagree with change
Solar flare: I disagree with this change. It's just taking away the identity and watering down a good morale.

No escape:
Disagree with change

Emperor's Champion:
Disagree with change

Shadow Blades:
Likely the morale drain wasn't working correctly. The morale drain should be increased instead of a complete rework of the morale.

Wings of heaven:
This is a class defining morale and is just straight fun. Please don't change.

Guard of steel:

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Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#50 » Wed May 08, 2019 6:50 am

Do like the removal of damage morals and think it’s in a good direction, however would have liked to see the m4 be a defense against morals
With the changes to immaculate defense I believe that this nerf means that the already easy mode range aoe morals need to be looked at

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