[Dev] Tank morale overhaul

[Collateral]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

After yesterday fort fight in which destro failed miserably, there's something I wished to mention.

When a tank with 11k hp and immaculate defense up dies in about 2-3 seconds, something is just wrong (and with ID nerf coming, I can't even imagine how you're supposed to take any fort whatsoever). Ttk in this game has always been very low, too low if you ask me. And this situation just confirmed it for me even more. Destro were droping like moths flying into a flame. Order basically just had to push one button (of course, the situation could be reversed, it's the same thing).

It has been like this for a long time, and I just feel like something should be done about it, now that you guys are thinking about morales. When your game comes down to pushing one button in critical moments, it simply isn't right, not for me at least. Yes people have to coordinate it, but that's not too complicated. So then, if you are thinking about removing raze from snb tanks, why not go one level higher and simply remove all damaging morales from tanks if, as you said, tanks are support and not dps?

Yes I know that burst is king in rvr, especially in forts and keeps. So how could tanks possibly help with anything in those situations? Well, if you want tanks to tank, give them the tools. Instead of having m4s be damaging, make them all purely supporting (tho I guess you could keep the ones in dps trees somewhat damaging). Damage buffs/debuffs, crit buffs/debuffs, crit damage buffs/debuffs, heal buffs/debuffs, cleanses/immunities, speed buffs, absorbs, cd reductions, snares, morale drains/buffs, build time increasers/decreasers. These are just off the top of my head, so some might probably be too strong or too weak (and some of those already exist), but you get the point. Also, many have mentioned how you have to gimp yourself for those m4s. So obviously you want something pretty good in return. And 1800 damage over a period of time is absolutely not worth it. One way to make them worth while could be making them m3s instead, but then you really have to watch out what kind of buffs they will have.

Let dps deal damage, and let tanks tank. Then I think you will have a nice, well rounded and well defined game. As it is currently, raw damage is dominating, so it's no wonder that tanks will be using raze, or other damaging morales they might have.

There are a lot of things that would have to change for this to work, as you simply can't look at such defining abilities on their own, isolated from so many other factors. Well I hope you guys figure it out, there's a lot of valuable feedback here.

Not that I don't fully understand your point where it often just comes down to morale bomb vs. morale bomb in forts.

But how else are you supposed to kill a tanky tank like a BO with 11k health that is spamming channeling block and HTL?

You can't get enough dps to even make a dent without morales, and since you can't really push or pressure most healers, all forts become is morale bomb vs morale bomb and who has more / better in the end.

I kind of think that this particular problem has more to do with the current design of keeps and forts than, with morale abilities overall.

I understand what you mean. I feel the same about unkillable kotbs specs, very annoying. But still you think it's ok for a tank with 11k hp AND ID up to die in a couple seconds? Why the hell did I even play the game and invest so much time into acquiring gear and renown, making talismans and what not to make myself as tanky as I can, when I die in a couple seconds on a keep fight because a group of people pushed one button? Idk to me that just feels disappointing, and like the game is just laughing to my face. Of course I should be hard to kill, I'm a damn tank. I would just rather see me die by abilities, debuffs and what not. And bo doesn't quite go into that group of unkillable tanks anyway, since all of his channels can just be interrupted.

The problem encompasses many aspects of the game, morales are one of them. Forts indeed are badly designed. A big problem arises when numbers become equal, obviously. I don't even know how that can happen. For some forts, like dwarf one, 20% aao is way too low for defenders. But that's off topic. I still stand by what I said. If you think tanks should tank, give them the tools. Otherwise as the game continues to build with more gear and new morales that are stronger, you will hit a brick wall at one point. With wounds being the only counter to morales, and wounds having a soft cap that punishes players who hit it and want to invest more into it, no one will be able to do a thing about morales.

[Nekkma]

I'm all for a morale overhaul, however I want to approach it in a methodical manor with an established intent. That being:

Make all speccable M4's accessible to their class without requiring the point investment. This opens up three more slots for speccable abilities in the future, but most importantly as all classes now have 4 options to choose from, we can establish a baseline of performance (say for example, immaculate defense in it's current state) and adjust the remaining to be on par with the other three choices for that class so there is a situation in which each of the abilities might be useful. Then we do the same with m3 and m2s, establishing a baseline of performance and either enhancing or reducing the Morales effectiveness slightly, or bumping it up or down from 2/3. Then we move on to the next archtype.

This is so predicated upon the assumption we permit all m4s without point instant. Does anyone agree or disagree with my proposed methodology?

I agree at least in the sense that one cannot say immaculate defence is way better than other morales just because most use it as that comes down to a spec decision and then the other m4s are weighed against other abilities than morales. For instance, I use "alter fate" on my shaman, not because I think it is better than "feelz no pain" but because I do not want to give up a silence and lack points to get both.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

I'm all for a morale overhaul, however I want to approach it in a methodical manor with an established intent. That being:

Make all speccable M4's accessible to their class without requiring the point investment. This opens up three more slots for speccable abilities in the future, but most importantly as all classes now have 4 options to choose from, we can establish a baseline of performance (say for example, immaculate defense in it's current state) and adjust the remaining to be on par with the other three choices for that class so there is a situation in which each of the abilities might be useful. Then we do the same with m3 and m2s, establishing a baseline of performance and either enhancing or reducing the Morales effectiveness slightly, or bumping it up or down from 2/3. Then we move on to the next archtype.

This is so predicated upon the assumption we permit all m4s without point instant. Does anyone agree or disagree with my proposed methodology?

Yes If it came to scaling dmg based on
-if aoe/st
-eff duration

Ex: no escape m3 / deafening bellow m3
-base m3 dmg 1800/2400
-base effect 10 sec
-reduction to have affect--> minus 600 dmg
-reduction to be aoe --> minus 600
Reduction effect to be aoe --> half duration (general st vs aoe rule)

End results = 600/1200 + 5 sec eff

Peculiar/particular/unique morales which dont do dmg?
-case to case method
-look at class synergy
-look overall class balance

Ex heaven wings / quit yer squabling
-snare to 40% duration 5 sec / moved m2 (and both sm/bo tough tactic m1 last 30 sec.

NB: there are 3 ways for mastery m4: mixed feeling but mastery m4 in live where m3 at a time, maybe cahnge em back to m3 and give 1 racial morale 4 to 24 class....it may be an alternative solution aswell removeo masterys morales and give an alternative off racial morale to all 24 classes. Then there is the simple m4 fix. You pick the route just do it finely.

Still this wont solve off vs def morales pro which is main issue. Someone (not me) once suggested to get rid of raw un-mitigabke dmg so that all def morales would had a meaning yes you then procide to buff off ones but this way maybe def and off will all work better and will be easier to balance.

[roadkillrobin]

To many changes all at once imo.
Try making 1 at the time and implement it and gather data of how it affects everything.

Raze being two hander requirement is probably a good idea as AoE Morale damage need to take a dive. Having 6-8 dps, 2-3 healers and 8 tanks all able to drop a morale bomb rush is just to much unmitigated damage.

[NoRKaLKiLLa]

Spoiler:

I'm all for a morale overhaul, however I want to approach it in a methodical manor with an established intent. That being:

Make all speccable M4's accessible to their class without requiring the point investment. This opens up three more slots for speccable abilities in the future, but most importantly as all classes now have 4 options to choose from, we can establish a baseline of performance (say for example, immaculate defense in it's current state) and adjust the remaining to be on par with the other three choices for that class so there is a situation in which each of the abilities might be useful. Then we do the same with m3 and m2s, establishing a baseline of performance and either enhancing or reducing the Morales effectiveness slightly, or bumping it up or down from 2/3. Then we move on to the next archtype.

This is so predicated upon the assumption we permit all m4s without point instant. Does anyone agree or disagree with my proposed methodology?

Furthermore, now in the hypothetical that All M4's are now freely speccable, we first establish that baseline archetype morale that all others should be held to and adjust the remaining morales such that they're viable alternatives dependent upon different imagined friendly and enemy group sizes, compositions and battlefield orientation (open ground vs funnels, mobile enemy groups versus static, ranged versus melee centric etc.)

On the road to bringing M4's all on an even playing field with each other, the first thing I would do before anything else is remove entirely the morale drain components from m4. This will obviously gut some M4s, but will allow us to give them back something in return in regards to utility.

Morale drain components are then moved to M3 and either become another option for M3s or the morale drain is added to existing M3 abilities with the caveat that a single morale drain is NOT capable of removing more than 1200 Morale. M3's are now capable of being used to bring another player/s from M4 to m3, m3 to m1, or m2 to to 0 morale. Morale-Drain-Morales are now no longer "haha I used my M4, now the 6 of you have no morales at all. gitgud."

Thoughts?

[xanderous]

Spoiler:

I'm all for a morale overhaul, however I want to approach it in a methodical manor with an established intent. That being:

Make all speccable M4's accessible to their class without requiring the point investment. This opens up three more slots for speccable abilities in the future, but most importantly as all classes now have 4 options to choose from, we can establish a baseline of performance (say for example, immaculate defense in it's current state) and adjust the remaining to be on par with the other three choices for that class so there is a situation in which each of the abilities might be useful. Then we do the same with m3 and m2s, establishing a baseline of performance and either enhancing or reducing the Morales effectiveness slightly, or bumping it up or down from 2/3. Then we move on to the next archtype.

This is so predicated upon the assumption we permit all m4s without point instant. Does anyone agree or disagree with my proposed methodology?

Furthermore, now in the hypothetical that All M4's are now freely speccable, we first establish that baseline archetype morale that all others should be held to and adjust the remaining morales such that they're viable alternatives dependent upon different imagined friendly and enemy group sizes, compositions and battlefield orientation (open ground vs funnels, mobile enemy groups versus static, ranged versus melee centric etc.)

On the road to bringing M4's all on an even playing field with each other, the first thing I would do before anything else is remove entirely the morale drain components from m4. This will obviously gut some M4s, but will allow us to give them back something in return in regards to utility.

Morale drain components are then moved to M3 and either become another option for M3s or the morale drain is added to existing M3 abilities with the caveat that a single morale drain is NOT capable of removing more than 1200 Morale. M3's are now capable of being used to bring another player/s from M4 to m3, m3 to m1, or m2 to to 0 morale. Morale-Drain-Morales are now no longer "haha I used my M4, now the 6 of you have no morales at all. gitgud."

Thoughts?

I think its important to note the current meta to what is effective now and what is entirely disposable and i don't mean what any random player joining a pug warband is likely to make use in a completely disorganised fashion, i am speaking of course, specifically organised warbands that will use pre configured builds to counter opposing status quo. Currently its BW's vs Sorcs, now in addition to this tanks will use m3 offensive morales during offensive stage, m4 during defensive stages, defensive stage is fairly circumstantial and rarely used in open field, its kill or be killed at present.

There are no morales that offer stuff like, granting a speed buff to groups to allow a warband to disengage or better reposition or Blob countering mechanics, its just purely out damage or making the odd judgement calls on immaculate defence use. You also have to consider what the effect the current climate and the message it tells your average and professional player in the long run, are we providing the option of advanced tools to advanced users or are we trying to apply a very simple structure for more casual friendly environment.

If you are going to look at how tank morales are applied, its need to be done very carefully and slowly, we should not see a series of m1/m2/m3/m4 related patch happening all in a one instance, from my interpretation it sounds like what you said in your last post is that you might have the correct idea in acknowledging the tanks archetypes and how each one should have its own thing, allowing something unique to its application, i think thats something i would also like to see.

I think morale drains in general are fine but do agree, solar flare was very strong and does need adjusting, i don't think chosens should have it though because they have morale tactics maras who can morale drain and that would create a circumstance that would severely favour destro.

[Karast]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

After yesterday fort fight in which destro failed miserably, there's something I wished to mention.

When a tank with 11k hp and immaculate defense up dies in about 2-3 seconds, something is just wrong (and with ID nerf coming, I can't even imagine how you're supposed to take any fort whatsoever). Ttk in this game has always been very low, too low if you ask me. And this situation just confirmed it for me even more. Destro were droping like moths flying into a flame. Order basically just had to push one button (of course, the situation could be reversed, it's the same thing).

It has been like this for a long time, and I just feel like something should be done about it, now that you guys are thinking about morales. When your game comes down to pushing one button in critical moments, it simply isn't right, not for me at least. Yes people have to coordinate it, but that's not too complicated. So then, if you are thinking about removing raze from snb tanks, why not go one level higher and simply remove all damaging morales from tanks if, as you said, tanks are support and not dps?

Yes I know that burst is king in rvr, especially in forts and keeps. So how could tanks possibly help with anything in those situations? Well, if you want tanks to tank, give them the tools. Instead of having m4s be damaging, make them all purely supporting (tho I guess you could keep the ones in dps trees somewhat damaging). Damage buffs/debuffs, crit buffs/debuffs, crit damage buffs/debuffs, heal buffs/debuffs, cleanses/immunities, speed buffs, absorbs, cd reductions, snares, morale drains/buffs, build time increasers/decreasers. These are just off the top of my head, so some might probably be too strong or too weak (and some of those already exist), but you get the point. Also, many have mentioned how you have to gimp yourself for those m4s. So obviously you want something pretty good in return. And 1800 damage over a period of time is absolutely not worth it. One way to make them worth while could be making them m3s instead, but then you really have to watch out what kind of buffs they will have.

Let dps deal damage, and let tanks tank. Then I think you will have a nice, well rounded and well defined game. As it is currently, raw damage is dominating, so it's no wonder that tanks will be using raze, or other damaging morales they might have.

There are a lot of things that would have to change for this to work, as you simply can't look at such defining abilities on their own, isolated from so many other factors. Well I hope you guys figure it out, there's a lot of valuable feedback here.

Not that I don't fully understand your point where it often just comes down to morale bomb vs. morale bomb in forts.

But how else are you supposed to kill a tanky tank like a BO with 11k health that is spamming channeling block and HTL?

You can't get enough dps to even make a dent without morales, and since you can't really push or pressure most healers, all forts become is morale bomb vs morale bomb and who has more / better in the end.

I kind of think that this particular problem has more to do with the current design of keeps and forts than, with morale abilities overall.

I understand what you mean. I feel the same about unkillable kotbs specs, very annoying. But still you think it's ok for a tank with 11k hp AND ID up to die in a couple seconds? Why the hell did I even play the game and invest so much time into acquiring gear and renown, making talismans and what not to make myself as tanky as I can, when I die in a couple seconds on a keep fight because a group of people pushed one button? Idk to me that just feels disappointing, and like the game is just laughing to my face. Of course I should be hard to kill, I'm a damn tank. I would just rather see me die by abilities, debuffs and what not. And bo doesn't quite go into that group of unkillable tanks anyway, since all of his channels can just be interrupted.

The problem encompasses many aspects of the game, morales are one of them. Forts indeed are badly designed. A big problem arises when numbers become equal, obviously. I don't even know how that can happen. For some forts, like dwarf one, 20% aao is way too low for defenders. But that's off topic. I still stand by what I said. If you think tanks should tank, give them the tools. Otherwise as the game continues to build with more gear and new morales that are stronger, you will hit a brick wall at one point. With wounds being the only counter to morales, and wounds having a soft cap that punishes players who hit it and want to invest more into it, no one will be able to do a thing about morales.

This is where we largely agree. Buffing and revamping for bigger and bigger morale bombs, to counter the funneling nature of forts just drives the game to a place no one really seems to want.

I personally prefer abilities like raze that have counter play that is more than just wounds stacking. It does suck to go tanky tank, and get insta-smashed, but I also think that game play without any form of morales would have it's own draw backs.

In the last morale re-balance when more and more careers got access to instant damage M2's, and morale bombs got bigger, faster, and more instant than channeled. It became much harder to break them and interrupt them. So wounds stacking was the result. I'd much rather see damaging morales swap to more tick style dots / channels from big 1200-2400 spikes, and more utility in the form of self / party defensive skills, heals, and so on.

[Xergon]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

After yesterday fort fight in which destro failed miserably, there's something I wished to mention.

When a tank with 11k hp and immaculate defense up dies in about 2-3 seconds, something is just wrong (and with ID nerf coming, I can't even imagine how you're supposed to take any fort whatsoever). Ttk in this game has always been very low, too low if you ask me. And this situation just confirmed it for me even more. Destro were droping like moths flying into a flame. Order basically just had to push one button (of course, the situation could be reversed, it's the same thing).

It has been like this for a long time, and I just feel like something should be done about it, now that you guys are thinking about morales. When your game comes down to pushing one button in critical moments, it simply isn't right, not for me at least. Yes people have to coordinate it, but that's not too complicated. So then, if you are thinking about removing raze from snb tanks, why not go one level higher and simply remove all damaging morales from tanks if, as you said, tanks are support and not dps?

Yes I know that burst is king in rvr, especially in forts and keeps. So how could tanks possibly help with anything in those situations? Well, if you want tanks to tank, give them the tools. Instead of having m4s be damaging, make them all purely supporting (tho I guess you could keep the ones in dps trees somewhat damaging). Damage buffs/debuffs, crit buffs/debuffs, crit damage buffs/debuffs, heal buffs/debuffs, cleanses/immunities, speed buffs, absorbs, cd reductions, snares, morale drains/buffs, build time increasers/decreasers. These are just off the top of my head, so some might probably be too strong or too weak (and some of those already exist), but you get the point. Also, many have mentioned how you have to gimp yourself for those m4s. So obviously you want something pretty good in return. And 1800 damage over a period of time is absolutely not worth it. One way to make them worth while could be making them m3s instead, but then you really have to watch out what kind of buffs they will have.

Let dps deal damage, and let tanks tank. Then I think you will have a nice, well rounded and well defined game. As it is currently, raw damage is dominating, so it's no wonder that tanks will be using raze, or other damaging morales they might have.

There are a lot of things that would have to change for this to work, as you simply can't look at such defining abilities on their own, isolated from so many other factors. Well I hope you guys figure it out, there's a lot of valuable feedback here.

Not that I don't fully understand your point where it often just comes down to morale bomb vs. morale bomb in forts.

But how else are you supposed to kill a tanky tank like a BO with 11k health that is spamming channeling block and HTL?

You can't get enough dps to even make a dent without morales, and since you can't really push or pressure most healers, all forts become is morale bomb vs morale bomb and who has more / better in the end.

I kind of think that this particular problem has more to do with the current design of keeps and forts than, with morale abilities overall.

I understand what you mean. I feel the same about unkillable kotbs specs, very annoying. But still you think it's ok for a tank with 11k hp AND ID up to die in a couple seconds? Why the hell did I even play the game and invest so much time into acquiring gear and renown, making talismans and what not to make myself as tanky as I can, when I die in a couple seconds on a keep fight because a group of people pushed one button? Idk to me that just feels disappointing, and like the game is just laughing to my face. Of course I should be hard to kill, I'm a damn tank. I would just rather see me die by abilities, debuffs and what not. And bo doesn't quite go into that group of unkillable tanks anyway, since all of his channels can just be interrupted.

Are you trolling or are you just ignorant ? or both ?
"I die because group of ppl press 1 button ?" So you want to tank zillion ppl because you think you should cuz you spent time to gear up your character ? Cmon man be real for sec... Even as guild premade WB is hard to execute proper morale drop in zerg fights not only because enemy use CC but also because body blocking from allies is annoying.
If you have 11k wounds (which every serious Tank in RvR should have) so thats like 10x 1200 Morals2 or 7x 1800 Morals4 (Slayer) im not gonna consider talking about 2400 Morals4 because classes that can do that are not WB viable...
So please dont tell me that you die to 1 button, you die to 10 ppl executing/coordinating proper moral drop, which you can very easily interrupt.

[Aethilmar]

Firstly, I don't understand this desire to pigeon-hole tanks into DPS or support with the clear bias being towards support. One of the things that historically made tanks enjoyable in this game is they are not WoW tank clones with the inevitable "Dude! UR a tank! UR just there 4 aggro and meatshield!" vibe.

As for the SM M2, my highly biased opinion is why do you insist on destroying the flavor of this class? While some of the changes have been functionally welcome for the SM (shieldmaster is now the superior spec) the others (double resist debuff) have whittled away at identity of the SM as a 2h offensive tank/pseudo-mdps (see my previous statement about bias about giving them one thing to do).

Wings of Heaven is part of that DPS identity and, quite frankly, is situational at best as it usually is just a good way to die if used offensively. But as you moved Raze to M3 is the current most interesting option there.

And this concept that since Order has too much mobility it must be removed is just laughable. Nobody in the history of this game said "Ooooh, bring only SM tanks for their Wings of Heaven M2". You are simply singling it out as a token sacrifice to avoid the whole White Lion issue and placate the Destro masses.

[wargrimnir]

I see many people are still throwing shade at us for suggesting some morales be changed at all. This is a feedback and suggestion thread, try to stay on topic. Not everything is going to change, not everything is going to stay the same. Things you suggest here as alternatives and as constructive criticism are taken into strong consideration.

We started with tanks because that was the first thing on the list. The rest of the archtypes will each have their thread with our initial thoughts, and we don't expect everything to be implemented outright. If we had the blind delusion that we knew better than a community who have also been playing this game for 10 years, we never would have bothered with a thread in the first place.

Take your opportunity to provide feedback wisely. We're not kind towards people who can't see the line between outright hostility and fair criticism.