[Dev] Tank morale overhaul

[anarchypark]

many have already pointed out that
any morale related to hp is OP. it need to be changed.
BG, IB, chosen, knight.
they're already tanky enough whether 2h or snb. no need to have additional self heal.
let healers do healing. tanks can be buffer/debuffer.

for wings of heaven.
- remove snare and root effect and immune to them for x seconds.
5~7 sec for grp or 30~50ft around caster. or 7~10 sec for self.
- 10~15% avoidance buff except himself. grp or 30~50ft around caster.
- armor buff. grp or 30~50ft around caster.
- grp AP restoration for 5~10 sec.
- when he gets the healing, it also heals same amount for any allies around 30~50ft of him.

for Tzeentch's Amplification.
- grp AP restoration for 5~10 sec.
- when he gets the healing, it also heals same amount for any allies around 30~50ft of him.
- simply reduce duration to 10 sec and healing % to 100~150.
- cast time reduced by 25% around 30ft of caster.
- any allies around 30~50ft cannot be interrupted for 10sec.

ps. @tesq, in-game item wall of teskh has interesting description

[saupreusse]

Id rather se shadowstep reworked/replaced than SM jump gone. If anything, it would be shadowstep bringing too much mobility to order side. It has no requirements like morale and a much shorter cooldown compared to the SM jump. For SWs it would be much easier to go with a shadow step rework than it is for SM to roll without the jump. It has been here since forever and is one of the reason I like the class. on the other hand we have an SW ability that doesnt even have an animation and feels kinda clunky to use. for me it seems counter intuitive to remove a working skill when the real mobility monsters wl and sw are untouched.

[Nekkma]

Id rather se shadowstep reworked/replaced than SM jump gone. If anything, it would be shadowstep bringing too much mobility to order side. It has no requirements like morale and a much shorter cooldown compared to the SM jump. For SWs it would be much easier to go with a shadow step rework than it is for SM to roll without the jump. It has been here since forever and is one of the reason I like the class. on the other hand we have an SW ability that doesnt even have an animation and feels kinda clunky to use. for me it seems counter intuitive to remove a working skill when the real mobility monsters wl and sw are untouched.

Indeed. Leaving the question about balance (but I completely agree that the first step would be to change asw mobility), I think that the team should never ever ever remove class unique abilities that to some extent defines the class. Adjust, fine. Remove, absolutely not. Wings of heaven is in that category, i.e. it is a unique ability in the tank archetype. These abilities adds alot to the game in the form that classes and realm are somewhat unique and not carbon copied mirrors. In addition to this we have the nostalgia factor which is a big reason for alot of people.

[abodam]

Interesting you start with tanks, personally feel tanks are the best working archetype in RoR overall. Apart from Chosen, who could use some of the old tricks back, most of them feels balanced and fit to their role in the game.
Healers morale need more love than anything, most of them are joke. But I guess we start with tanks.
I will write into Original post, leave out class specific morales on Tanks I do not play or changes I am indifferent with.

Spoiler:

General for tanks:

M4
Immacule defence will be lowered from 75% to 60%. This morale is simply dwarfing the other morales and is still strong at 60. It should be worth getting the speccable M4s.

This dwarfing other M4 is because:
A) Current M4 are joke and need changing
B) Nobody is going to spend that many mastery points for Morale.

I would prefer buffing/changing current spec M4s + making them avaiable when you invest certain amount of points into tree (10+ points = you get M4). Would leave Immacule Defence unchanged to test if people start using other morales, when they have more real options to do so, before nerfing it.


M3
NEW ABILITY: Hold the line: Will be an instant 30% HTL stack for 12 sec to all members in 100 feet, will require a shield. This is as tanks are support when using a shield and not a dps. This is given as raze will have a 2h requirement.
Why not, more options always welcomed. Do not agree with splitting for shield/2H. As stated multiple times by multiple people shield != deftard, 2H != dpstard
Raze: Will have a requirement of a 2h weapon. This as tanks with shields are support and not dps.
Same as above about weapon requirement.
M2
Distracting Bellow: Its range will be increased to a 45 feet cone and reduction reduced to 35% instead of 50%. Bigger range to make it easier to hit with consistently but less power in return.
Should be unchanged and moved back to M3, where it belongs. As stated in my previous post, description of this change also does not reflect current working of this morale.

New Offensive M2 - Give your party X% (25?) strikethrough for 7 seconds.
Again, would promote more options what to pick, when introducing unique buff for group.

Specific Career changes:
Black Orc:
M1
Quit yer squabblin’: Total rework, single target silence for 7 sec. We wanted to give the BO some single target utility fitting for a M1 which can stop a healer for 7 seconds.
7 seconds would be insane on M1.

Chosen
M2
Tzeentch Amplification: We are open for suggestions on this one, its rather bad as it is and would be up for a change that fits with the theme and name.
This morale is great and has its uses in variety of settings. Also arguing it does not fit its name is really weird.

Blackguard
M3
Armor of eternal servitude: Will have its heal increased to 7200 over 20 seconds. Original implementation had a crap heal.
Will be too strong, 5400 heal over 20 seconds, might be absolutely enough.
M1
Banish Weakness: Healing component removed and instead gives 20 hate instantly. The heal was crap and with the hate increase you can dump hate and then use this M1 to get defensive tactics again and/or another hate dump.
This morale is absolutely great in current iteration, I would even say too good, easily can heal for 2,4k+ plus. 30AP + 200 health per debuff might be more in live with M1 power. BG really does not need more hate dump.

Ironbreaker

M2
Skin of iron: Total rework. Disarm attackers on melee hit for 10 seconds. Compared to the standard M2 with 100% block this should not be taken unless 2h which for a generic morale is not ideal.
10 second disarm? Current iteration is unique and fits IB characters, do not see a reason for this change.

Knight of the blazing sun:
M3
No escape: Total rework. 900 dmg and 5 sec root in a 30 feet aoe. Original implementation was simply too strong.
Keep original damage and 7 second root, more in line with other M3s. But do not feel original is too strong.
M2
Emperor's Champion: Total rework. Removes all CC (like juggernaut), CC immune and 20% move speed for 10 sec. Original implementation was simply too strong, giving too much “free” stats on something that you can in practice under the best conditions have a 50% uptime on. Instead it will be a ability to make you close to impossible to escape from.
Original was too strong, so you are making it even stronger. 10 second juggernaut with speed boost is insane for already really "sticky" tank with AoE snare.
Swordmaster

M2
Wings of heaven: open for suggestions here. But it has to be replaced. Order already have more gap closers and this is a heavy armor wearing tank career, a pounce does not fit here.
Remove slow component, reduce range from 100ft to 65ft. Fits High elfs mobility, much less oppressing without massive morale snare.

I would like to see adding more options to the game rather than changing everything at once and you end up with another one-fits-all build. Why not change whats bad and introduce new and keeping old the same. People might experiment and come up with new builds. If not, then its time to look at the things which are still used 90% of the time. If you change everything at once, you might not get the result you want.

[Scrilian]

I can only assume that the disparity between having and not having moral pump tactics would be addressed as well, given that Solar Flare is going to be "brought down".
On the side note, the duration of most of the defensive morals should be looked at.

[Collateral]

After yesterday fort fight in which destro failed miserably, there's something I wished to mention.

When a tank with 11k hp and immaculate defense up dies in about 2-3 seconds, something is just wrong (and with ID nerf coming, I can't even imagine how you're supposed to take any fort whatsoever). Ttk in this game has always been very low, too low if you ask me. And this situation just confirmed it for me even more. Destro were droping like moths flying into a flame. Order basically just had to push one button (of course, the situation could be reversed, it's the same thing).

It has been like this for a long time, and I just feel like something should be done about it, now that you guys are thinking about morales. When your game comes down to pushing one button in critical moments, it simply isn't right, not for me at least. Yes people have to coordinate it, but that's not too complicated. So then, if you are thinking about removing raze from snb tanks, why not go one level higher and simply remove all damaging morales from tanks if, as you said, tanks are support and not dps?

Yes I know that burst is king in rvr, especially in forts and keeps. So how could tanks possibly help with anything in those situations? Well, if you want tanks to tank, give them the tools. Instead of having m4s be damaging, make them all purely supporting (tho I guess you could keep the ones in dps trees somewhat damaging). Damage buffs/debuffs, crit buffs/debuffs, crit damage buffs/debuffs, heal buffs/debuffs, cleanses/immunities, speed buffs, absorbs, cd reductions, snares, morale drains/buffs, build time increasers/decreasers. These are just off the top of my head, so some might probably be too strong or too weak (and some of those already exist), but you get the point. Also, many have mentioned how you have to gimp yourself for those m4s. So obviously you want something pretty good in return. And 1800 damage over a period of time is absolutely not worth it. One way to make them worth while could be making them m3s instead, but then you really have to watch out what kind of buffs they will have.

Let dps deal damage, and let tanks tank. Then I think you will have a nice, well rounded and well defined game. As it is currently, raw damage is dominating, so it's no wonder that tanks will be using raze, or other damaging morales they might have.

There are a lot of things that would have to change for this to work, as you simply can't look at such defining abilities on their own, isolated from so many other factors. Well I hope you guys figure it out, there's a lot of valuable feedback here.

[Nekkma]

Funnel, and the disparity between the difficulty in coordinating attack versus defence, always was an issue in this game. I think the loss of resolute defence also play a big part in this. I do not see any immediate reason to nerf immaculate defence either. If morales are going to be reworked you could consider to add anti cc morales for tanks so that you can push with both immaculate defence and anti-cc at the same time to break funnels.

[kirraha]

So no Raze for SnB tanks?
I just wonder about the argument " This as tanks with shields are support and not dps."
Does it mean more Dmg dealing skills will unable to be used as SnB?

It kinda is reminding of a certaing Guard change that got reversed a short while ago when it got decided to play with the core abilites cause a similar argument was thought back then.

Dont take this as critisism. I just think this arguments should apply to other morale skills. Dps tanks shouldnt then be able use the defensive morales as "Distracting bellow", Impenetrable armor" and "Immaculate defence" cause those are tbh defensive morales.

Same should not defensive tanks not be able to use ANY offensive morales that deals dmg. Like the m1 "Demolishing strike".

Its just my opinion. Why is there all of a sudden a focus on Raze after it was changed from a m2 slot to a m3 slot which already made it hard use in wb combat cause of zerging and long wait to build it. (even on destro). Now only "Dps" tanks can use it too. It just makes no real sense in my head. Less with the argument.

[iagdtod]

Feedback is from the pov of a rr80 Chosen, I've played a lot of wb snb tanking very little 2h and/or 6v6. Apologies if I missed, I read thread but didn't see it, but could you clarify the new m3 Hold the line.

Just to recap why I'm asking is the the Morale HTL is "Will be an instant 30% HTL stack for 12 sec to all members in 100 feet, will require a shield."
'Normal' HTL (NHTL) summary is (assuming tooltip is accurate): 45% dodge/disrupt for the tank and 15% for all behind within 50 ft, stacks up the 3 times.

I would guess the Moral HTL would stack with normal htl (or otherwise why use it)? Could you clarify if that's the case and it will stack? And the 30% for Moral HTL is 30% of my normal dodge/disrupt or 30% of whatever dodge/disrupt I have due to normal HTL. As in, will it all stack? Could a group have 3 stacks of normal HTL and a stack of Moral HTL? And are the %'s additive or is a % of a % (if you get what I mean). I'm can't quite work out how powerful this morale would be.

My main issue is I'm not sure what tanks are getting with the new htl.

Some other initial thoughts, that may change depending on how Moral htl works, are I'm not so keen on having more reasons to use htl, as a wb tank sometimes using htl (potting to keep it going as much as possible) and occasionally another skill (only use quake rarely as it gives immunity, use Tzeen Reflect under pressure, blast wave just before a push), so I'm wondering if I will become even more of a passive player, valued as I offer guard, auras and htl. I also wonder if you are going to get larger zergs with this kind of change as this reduces one zerg buster (75% immaculate def to 60) and removes another (raze from snb tanks). If you can't counter a zerg with a smaller force then you have to make a zerg, as both sides know. You can't use both morals in the same encounter as fights usually don't last long enough to get morale 3 and a morale 4 in the one fight so they aren't that over-powered, but they are useful counters (even if as Grurfarg points out, any tank can sometimes get pancaked very fast in a full zerg funnel, even with a full rr80 def snb tank with M4 up).

[peterthepan3]

many have already pointed out that
any morale related to hp is OP. it need to be changed.

Haven't seen a single argument that would lead me to believe that such Morales are 'OP'.