[Dev] Tank morale overhaul

[Karl]

Regarding the change to SM M2 - how about keeping the pounce but tweaking it a bit? On live the next step in 1.4.9 for SM was to make SM beeing able to pounce to it's guarded target - allways sounded fun to me
(Might even make it require shield since it's a tank feature (but pls don't ))

Kind regards
K

[Stophy22]

I think an important question to ask is what do we want morales to be.

Let it be known most of the time I’m referring to morale 4 unless specified otherwise.

Do we want them to be “I win” buttons?

Spoiler:

At the click of a button(or 6/24 clicks of a button) do we want to be able to wipe another warband (raze) and on the defensive reactionary side of it stop ourselves from being wiped by the same click of a button (immaculate defense) personally this is how I see morales right now. Order vs Destro is pretty stalemate until morales charge up to make a push or difference and I feel like that’s how a majority of people want morales to be. Correct me if I’m wrong. So if that’s the case let’s proceed to making them like that. Aoe Damage bombs, huge party wide shields, large resistances for everyone, morale drain (don’t let them click the I win button in the first place) big aoe roots or literally any tool to eliminate a massive amount of people when chained or coordinated together.)

Do we want them not to be “i win” buttons?

Spoiler:

IMO morales will always be sort of an I win button ( morale 4 at least). You wait that long to use an ability it’s considered an ultimate ability and should be better than your other ones, but it shouldn’t 1 hit kill people that’s never fair. So this translates, to me, as huge stat increases that allow you to preform what your class does even better! But are just stat increases enough to change a tide of war? I’m not sure but it can be an alternative to win buttons. I guess displacement that ignores immunity could also be an alternative, maybe insane levels of utility? Haven’t given it much thought but I’m sure others have

Do we want them all to be useful and viable?

Spoiler:

immaculate defense is king of kings for morales and if other morales are going to be on par you need to have them fill niche rolls or be an alternative to Immaculate D. If that morale is damage reduction maybe another morale is <insert something that contends 60%dmg reduction here>. Like for rank 1 morales you have the option to double armor debuff or you can hold someone in place. One works well I’m general and can be pretty effective while the other one is basically a free kill in a group. So there is some competition. T4 morales are basically used in keeps so what would be useful for keep taking and fighting? 60% damage reduction sure is. The other t4 morales aren’t really contenders because you have to spec for them and there are few that are actually better than the one you get in general (stepping away from tanks for a second just for an example) a thousand and 1 dark blessings is actually pretty solid alternative for a healer compared to mass res.

Do we want certain morales that are class unique to be useful and viable?

Spoiler:

id sure hope other people want this. And a step toward this is look at all the morales that are good and figure out the scenarios that people use those morales in and implement or rework existing morales that aren’t used, kind of like how you’re doing now, to be alternatives ways to approach that scenario. Immaculate D basically is an o **** button for your team to give em some breathing room and survive burst or charge into a room heavily guarded by aoe, etc. What’s an alternative to this situation that could contend this morale? What if tanks had a morale to just eliminate LOS (maybe the animation is just a huge shield) and everyone can move up because the LOS has been broken on the suppressing fire? Healers have ways to give classes ap so they can infinitely spam safety damage so no push can happen, why not counter this in a way different than, “alright we take less damage now go win” plus huge LOS shield doesn’t work in every situation whereas immaculate D does for the most part. Literally just spit balling don’t get mad at OP suggestion my mind is more in the location of what’s interesting and fun rather than what’s balanced, good luck with balance hehe

Do we want them to be thematic or mechanic?

Spoiler:

things that are thematic like gromril plate I think are really cool because they have a lore value in my heart and might end up slotting them just because of lore. But then you have things like SM wings of white lion where you can just jump to a target and that’s like actually enjoyable to use and preform. A balance between the two I think is important. Increasing damage numbers and lowering percentages might help with fairness at the end of the day but what’s fun is important to. Does everyone play white lion because it’s op or fun? I wouldn’t know I don’t have one but I’d like to make the assumption it’s a mixture of both. Jumping around the battlefield and fetching your victims to you seems really enjoyable, the problem is it is, for you.

What do we want morales to do?

Spoiler:

this is probably the most important and ties every question here together. Are they one shots?are they steroids? Ultimate abilities? Group play tools? Solo play tools? Are they all the above? I think once we realize what morales are, then we can fit me into the game in a supervised way that springs for fun rather than tweaking values up and down to what ends?

hope it helps. I think it’s important and don’t take my suggestions too seriously it’s mainly to just get some creative ideas flowing I guess

[Collateral]

Are you trolling or are you just ignorant ? or both ?
"I die because group of ppl press 1 button ?" So you want to tank zillion ppl because you think you should cuz you spent time to gear up your character ? Cmon man be real for sec... Even as guild premade WB is hard to execute proper morale drop in zerg fights not only because enemy use CC but also because body blocking from allies is annoying.
If you have 11k wounds (which every serious Tank in RvR should have) so thats like 10x 1200 Morals2 or 7x 1800 Morals4 (Slayer) im not gonna consider talking about 2400 Morals4 because classes that can do that are not WB viable...
So please dont tell me that you die to 1 button, you die to 10 ppl executing/coordinating proper moral drop, which you can very easily interrupt.

I've been playing in organized wbs for 3 years here, most of that time spent in a hardcore environment, so yes clearly I'm trolling...And what's with that attitude? I have no quarrels with you.

You must be the one who is trolling, since I don't know how you can even say that coordinated morales in zerg fights can be "easily interrupted". Be my guest in interrupting instant morales, and when people have immunities from all the randoms spamming punts and staggers. And no it's not hard to do a morale drop in a proper organized wb that knows what it's doing, give me a break. One person literally has to do a count down, then everyone pushes their button, it's that simple. Even in chat you can do a count down, and if half the people listen it's enough. Keep in mind that this doesn't HAVE to happen instantly, it can be in succesion (and usually is cuz only robots could to it instantly), meaning 3-4 people at a time. Body blocking is a non-issue, you need a couple seconds at most to come into position. Plus most morales have good enough range to be effective even if you're body blocked.

I never said I wanted to tank a million people. I said I would rather die from abilities than instant, unmitigatable damage. I have no problem with dying. But I have a problem when the game trivialises things. And instant morale damage is trivialising rvr, and has always been. That's why I would rather see tanks getting morales that buff damage/crits/defenses/resists or debuff damage/healing and what not. Keep in mind that morales stack with everything else, so there is potential for some great synergies.

[wachlarz]

Spoiler:

I'm all for a morale overhaul, however I want to approach it in a methodical manor with an established intent. That being:

Make all speccable M4's accessible to their class without requiring the point investment. This opens up three more slots for speccable abilities in the future, but most importantly as all classes now have 4 options to choose from, we can establish a baseline of performance (say for example, immaculate defense in it's current state) and adjust the remaining to be on par with the other three choices for that class so there is a situation in which each of the abilities might be useful. Then we do the same with m3 and m2s, establishing a baseline of performance and either enhancing or reducing the Morales effectiveness slightly, or bumping it up or down from 2/3. Then we move on to the next archtype.

This is so predicated upon the assumption we permit all m4s without point instant. Does anyone agree or disagree with my proposed methodology?

Furthermore, now in the hypothetical that All M4's are now freely speccable, we first establish that baseline archetype morale that all others should be held to and adjust the remaining morales such that they're viable alternatives dependent upon different imagined friendly and enemy group sizes, compositions and battlefield orientation (open ground vs funnels, mobile enemy groups versus static, ranged versus melee centric etc.)

On the road to bringing M4's all on an even playing field with each other, the first thing I would do before anything else is remove entirely the morale drain components from m4. This will obviously gut some M4s, but will allow us to give them back something in return in regards to utility.

Morale drain components are then moved to M3 and either become another option for M3s or the morale drain is added to existing M3 abilities with the caveat that a single morale drain is NOT capable of removing more than 1200 Morale. M3's are now capable of being used to bring another player/s from M4 to m3, m3 to m1, or m2 to to 0 morale. Morale-Drain-Morales are now no longer "haha I used my M4, now the 6 of you have no morales at all. gitgud."

Thoughts?

change morale drain to: u cant use morale in next 10 sec in aoe zone

[Collateral]

change morale drain to: u cant use morale in next 10 sec in aoe zone

That would be completely broken. It's even stronger than a full morale drain (you can at least buiod to m1 or m2 after it) and especially a 1200 morale drain, since it would prevent you from using even m3 or m2, which can be useful as well if you don't have m4.

I think morale drain should be left to abilities and tactics (which order lacks obviously). Having such strong morales like solar flare will always make them more useful than anything else, since morales play such a huge role. It's about balancing things out, and as I mentioned before, this equation has many variables. So you can't look at morales without looking at abilities and tactics.

Spoiler:

The theme between the realms right now is that destro has pumps and drains (granted it's on one class which is another discussion), and order has a very strong drain (and some pumps). And that strong drain makes it hard to balance other things, so it's no wonder you want to get rid of it. That's why order dps classes need something of the opposite effect to destro. If destro can pump, give order dps classes tools to stop that pump (e.g. an aoe that disables morale building for 4-5 seconds, or reduces it to 50% effectiveness) so they can level the playing field. Currently, instead of people playing proactively, trying to disrupt their opponents, they rely on one or two things, which again trivialises rvr and makes it hard to balance. Of course I could be wrong, since I can't predict how it would all play out exactly in huge zergs (another thing that makes balance hard).

Everything is a race to morales, that one button click that can change the course of battle. But when the scale becomes big enough, it too falls on it's face, and that's because of the simple thing called target cap. Maybe it's just me that got tired of unmitigatable damage, and I just have a fools hope that we can do without them. I can't know what rvr would look like if we got rid of them (even only on tanks), and many many other things would need to change for that idea to fully work.

It's the zergs that make a big mess of rvr, but that too is another discussion. And whenever we tried to discuss it, there would be no conclusion about it.

[wachlarz]

change morale drain to: u cant use morale in next 10 sec in aoe zone

That would be completely broken. It's even stronger than a full morale drain (you can at least buiod to m1 or m2 after it) and especially a 1200 morale drain, since it would prevent you from using even m3 or m2, which can be useful as well if you don't have m4.

I think morale drain should be left to abilities and tactics (which order lacks obviously). Having such strong morales like solar flare will always make them more useful than anything else, since morales play such a huge role. It's about balancing things out, and as I mentioned before, this equation has many variables. So you can't look at morales without looking at abilities and tactics.

Spoiler:

The theme between the realms right now is that destro has pumps and drains (granted it's on one class which is another discussion), and order has a very strong drain (and some pumps). And that strong drain makes it hard to balance other things, so it's no wonder you want to get rid of it. That's why order dps classes need something of the opposite effect to destro. If destro can pump, give order dps classes tools to stop that pump (e.g. an aoe that disables morale building for 4-5 seconds, or reduces it to 50% effectiveness) so they can level the playing field. Currently, instead of people playing proactively, trying to disrupt their opponents, they rely on one or two things, which again trivialises rvr and makes it hard to balance. Of course I could be wrong, since I can't predict how it would all play out exactly in huge zergs (another thing that makes balance hard).

Everything is a race to morales, that one button click that can change the course of battle. But when the scale becomes big enough, it too falls on it's face, and that's because of the simple thing called target cap. Maybe it's just me that got tired of unmitigatable damage, and I just have a fools hope that we can do without them. I can't know what rvr would look like if we got rid of them (even only on tanks), and many many other things would need to change for that idea to fully work.

Disagree. If U survive 10 sec u can use m4. Not wait ages for next m4 like we have now

[Collateral]

Disagree. If U survive 10 sec u can use m4. Not wait ages for next m4 like we have now

If you didn't read what I wrote before, it would make no difference because you would die in those 10 seconds without m4 or m2. You die even WITH m4 up. That's why your suggestion is even more broken imo, since you couldn't use any morale whatsoever.

[Lime]

Don't get the constant tank nerfs. ID doesn't need a nerf it is a core tank ability and doesn't save you from morale dumps. Avoidance as a defense mechanic is flawed because flanking your target with melee damage completely avoids it.

[wachlarz]

Disagree. If U survive 10 sec u can use m4. Not wait ages for next m4 like we have now

If you didn't read what I wrote before, it would make no difference because you would die in those 10 seconds without m4 or m2. You die even WITH m4 up. That's why your suggestion is even more broken imo, since you couldn't use any morale whatsoever.

So if we die even WITH m4 up we are doomed xd. Not all fights U should survive.

[Wam]

M4
Immacule defence will be lowered from 75% to 60%. This morale is simply dwarfing the other morales and is still strong at 60. It should be worth getting the speccable M4s.

Spoiler:

I know your suggestion is well intentioned, maybe you don't like the pesky 6 man's using m4 and kiting for days, but that is because good players that swap guards, healers that know how to heal, and dps which know how to move... but on large scale it will have horrible consequences. (If 6 man dont die its because the ST/AOE pressure is weak, lack of debuffs / good control)
Bad change, because it favours the defender and it favours the zerg. You are not going to get M4 in open field in most fights unless you have earnt it, but try pushing any remotely organised funnel with current m4 and tell me how you get along. The other night for a rare instance we was defending, and postern was locked in BFP... they had no chance to break our defense even with current 75% reduction and some solar flare attempts.

Defenders have better line of sight, no bodyblock, lag, oil, keep lord... and yes defenders can also use m4, but attackers need it and alot more to survive the morale bomb in the choke or just usual damage if you have enough.
Plus shouldn't morale 4's be strong? there's a reason why its picked because it does what the tank archtype suppose to do and that is protect, it provides support... the other morale 4's are junk and not worth a second glance besides solar flare on knights and solar flare has some counters it is fine just most people do not use counters properly... maybe you want to decrease its morale drain so it doesnt completely wipe and that is fine/fair but no need to mirror it in my honest opinion, its order unique.

M3
NEW ABILITY: Hold the line: Will be an instant 30% HTL stack for 12 sec to all members in 100 feet, will require a shield. This is as tanks are support when using a shield and not a dps. This is given as raze will have a 2h requirement.

Spoiler:

not needed and not a good enough replacement, Tanks should be tanks and tanks should be holding the line anyway if they know what they are doing, if they are not being tanks then they dont know what they are doing im affraid

Raze: Will have a requirement of a 2h weapon. This as tanks with shields are support and not dps.

Spoiler:

Bad change... you are reinventing the wheel too much and it produces further ripple effects downstream.
Order have more normal damage, BW's have more proc's, Order have more healing (hello knight aura, hello warrior priest + healing... and hello wounds buff to party)

The way the game was designed is for destro to have advantage early on in fights, but longer fight went out the pendulum swing into orders favour. Destro had slightly better morale building, and potential ways to counter order morale and usually slightly better CC... order get more raw damage and heals as a trade off.

This tinkering with morale damage, raze already got nerfed so the time to kill for destro has been increased, it allows m2 from order healers and dps to come into play more... so punished the original status quo. Our old warbands use to only have raze as a morale bomb (before sorcs was giving shatter m2 on sorcs) and when you removed resoulte defence that was a nerf and created a counter play to raze... raze is also easier to avoid and heal through if you are smart and have better postioning but most people don't. If people wasn't giving out free immunities (hello swordmasters and black orks spamming kb on cooldown just because... hello engi/magus mines)

Also sorc m2 brings destro into playing order's game of close range bombing, where destro doesnt have too.

SNB tanks don't bring too much damage, you going to take even more away from them and if they got to m3 then they have earnt it... also its another tool to be used against zerg, now take this away its another pandering to mindless zerg and anti organised warband change.

Even if you remove raze for bizarre reasons 2 hander tanks aint going to become viable in warband, its a ranged dps world we live in they will get melted and die without being useful. Only blackguard 2hander as a remote chance of being in a proper warband, and its always been on the fringes. SNB BG nope, 2hander black ork nope, 2hander chosen lol...

M2
Distracting Bellow: Its range will be increased to a 45 feet cone and reduction reduced to 35% instead of 50%. Bigger range to make it easier to hit with consistently but less power in return.

Spoiler:

The morale is working fine currently, I don't see why you need to waste resources in changing it.

Black Orc:
M4
Puddle ‘o Muck: Change to a instant 1200 dmg but keep snare. Damage was crap.
Can't touch us: Will be changed to instantly give party in 100 feet 200 AP as well as a 4500 absorb shield. Made to match shield of Valor as it was clearly stronger.
Yer nothing: Entire rework will be 300 dmg each 0.5 sec with micro knockback in a 30 feet range. 3 Sec duration. Original implementation was simply crap with no damage and a small morale drain.

Spoiler:

Nice to see something useless being changed so more chance of being used, still think m4's should be stronger so there's alternative to ID thats worth investing into

M3
Deafening bellow: Silence component will be removed and replaced with a 1sec buildup increase debuff for 10 secs. Slightly longer duration but made worse as a 5 sec silence to all hit in an aoe is very strong and made all other choices no choice.

Spoiler:

Bad change and will make me play order and roflstomp destro without mercy. This change removes CC from destro, knights got their CC on m3, borks need their CC... fair is fair, remove one remove both. remove one, keep other... then I take it personally as bias to one realm, and no point playing gatekeeper when another Anti zerg tool on destro gets destroyed. Especially as a chosen aura can do what this morale will do.

When you look at changes, you cant just look at it by itself, you have to compare it and know how its used and why... again the silence component is not always used because people have given free CC immunities, but if your black ork has managed to get that deep into enemy with m3 then it is deserved.

M2
Walk it off!: toughness component removed and will be replaced by reduction of crit damage by 25% for 20 sec. Toughness is less effective and this change would make it interesting in the crit meta that DPS dealers usually build on.

Spoiler:

ok change

M1
Quit yer squabblin’: Total rework, single target silence for 7 sec. We wanted to give the BO some single target utility fitting for a M1 which can stop a healer for 7 seconds.

Spoiler:

Bad change
Black orks already got a silence by default... 7 seconds is a long time order will complain (yes i know 60 sec cd and people complain about shaman 5 second silence as it is) but this would be more small scale territory

Chosen
M4
Warping embrace: 1200 damage in a line with 40% snare over 15 sec. Damage was crap.
Shatter faith: Total rework to match solar flare. 30 feet aoe with 800 damage and drains 1200 morale of all hit. Original implementation was crap as it was the damage with a simple dispel.

Spoiler:

Bad change, because its a mirror and not needed in my opinion... order should have some sperate nice things, destro should have some sperate nice things.

ok i am not sure if you are sampling fort's as your way to collect information and feedback but they would be the worse place in game for you to collect anything useful because i've seen what goes on there, i know the mentality that exists.

Destro have loser mentality, they've been outnumbered and drained to be conditioned to usually give up without a proper fight, they just want to grind their four invader medals and easy renown. Current solar flare has played a part, the fact destro was usually defending (zone population issues) opening two ways allowed bigger numbers a easier time (attackers... usually order) and also order usually was driven by a organised force. Be that Semi pug+ ... destro usually was very pug and all over the place especially some questionable leadership choices, but their setups was gimped, less players to chose from, less amount of healers possible... broken setups, broken mentality, broken leadership = GG only one outcome.

M2
Tzeentch Amplification: We are open for suggestions on this one, its rather bad as it is and would be up for a change that fits with the theme and name.

Spoiler:

I know dont like mirrors, but its a morale not a aura, but group healing, or group crit is a possible alternative idea to current?

Blackguard
M4
Blast of hatred: Total rework. 1200 dmg instantly and knockback in a 40 feet line. Damage was crap.
Khaines warding: Total rework. Increase avoidance on party (not BG) by 20% for 15 sec and the BG gains a 3000 absorb for 15 sec and 100 hate. Original implementation was crap as it was a small heal dependant on a block inside the party which would most likely only be from the BG himself...
In Malekeiths name: 45 feet aoe with 1200 dmg and a +10 cooldown increaser for all hit that last for 8 sec. Increased range and changed silence to CD increaser to make it easier to hit with and to still allow it to be disruptive but not too strong.

Spoiler:

Better than previous version

M3
Armor of eternal servitude: Will have its heal increased to 7200 over 20 seconds. Original implementation had a crap heal.

Spoiler:

Okay

M1
Banish Weakness: Healing component removed and instead gives 20 hate instantly. The heal was crap and with the hate increase you can dump hate and then use this M1 to get defensive tactics again and/or another hate dump.

Spoiler:

Healing part was good if used right, was fine as it was

Ironbreaker
M4
Strength in numbers: party avoidance lowered to 20%. Original implementation was simply slightly too strong.
Earthen renewal: Total rework. Party in 100 feet will have hexes, curses and ailments removed and buffed for 10 seconds with “on enemy cast deal 400 dmg back to attacker”. Original implementation was simply crap and not worth taking in the tree. This way the IB should be able to turn the tide possibly in a tight spot with the damage back.

Spoiler:

Not sure if it needs rework, never really heard IB and too strong in same sentence when it comes to large scale but a aggressive change

M2
Skin of iron: Total rework. Disarm attackers on melee hit for 10 seconds. Compared to the standard M2 with 100% block this should not be taken unless 2h which for a generic morale is not ideal.

Spoiler:

ok

M1
Rock Clutch: damage increased to 900 and root reduced to 5 sec. Slightly more damage for the IB instantly and then lower root to make it more tempting to take over demolishing strike.

Spoiler:

ok nice between demo strike and champs challenge

Knight of the blazing sun:
M4
Flawless Defense: avoidance lowered to 30%. Original implementation was simply too strong.
Solar flare: reduce morale with 1200 instead of full morale wipe. Original implementation was simply too strong as it could negate an entire push from the opponent force in a crowded defense. There was no other morale with the same power and has to be tuned down.

Spoiler:

Sure it was very strong, made it only viable alternative to ID so far... still I think should be order and knight only to keep their identities

M3
No escape: Total rework. 900 dmg and 5 sec root in a 30 feet aoe. Original implementation was simply too strong.

Spoiler:

I think current m3 is fine, just like borks, removing/lowering them is taking away anti zerg tools, and if there is nothing else in place to counter zerg then yeah that is the direction of the game is heading and not great in my opinion and is already very blob/zerg friendly as it is.

M2
Emperor's Champion: Total rework. Removes all CC (like juggernaut), CC immune and 20% move speed for 10 sec. Original implementation was simply too strong, giving too much “free” stats on something that you can in practice under the best conditions have a 50% uptime on. Instead it will be a ability to make you close to impossible to escape from.

Spoiler:

interesting change

Swordmaster
M4
Shadow Blades: morale drain removed and replaced with a choppa pull effect. Morale drain was simply bad and replaced with something more fun.

Spoiler:

Depends how strong it is to be alternative to ID

M2
Wings of heaven: open for suggestions here. But it has to be replaced. Order already have more gap closers and this is a heavy armor wearing tank career, a pounce does not fit here.

Spoiler:

Wings is very good and situtional and on long CD... it is the fast CD escapism of the other classes which is the problem, not once a minute on the tank which comes at the cost of other choices. It is SM DNA, just like solar flare is knight DNA. If there is a problem this is not the root cause of it... its the class that we cannot speak of, or its sidekick that also cannot be spoken of

M1
Guard of steel: toughness component changed to a party increase of 800 armor. The armor increase fits better for fluff and also makes it more useful against melee but less useful against magic.

Spoiler:

If it stacks with potion sure .

TLDR

Spoiler:

TLDR - if you make changes that favour the zerg then game will become worse... game already favours the zerg massively as it is with the AOE reduced cap and damage spread which makes it fluff damage and useless, morale damage is one thing that is easier to make less spread but yeah lets just remove that because reasons.

Population / Zerg control ... Campaign balance (like rams bugging out in lag, lords coming out their keep) should be higher priority than reinventing the wheel... if you take away the ability to bite back against superior numbers then it will just come down to who has more people and not what you do with them and that is unhealthy direction and boring in my opinion... just winning by default because you show up with more people.

Also with less morale bomb realm balance will be altered even more and favoured to order ... see more proc damage on BW, see increased healing (knight/wp) you've already reduced destro's threat level and early advantage with previous tinkering making it easier for order... Also see giving Engi's more useful morale and their aoe ability increased.

Now with more tinkering and removal this becomes even more advantage for order despite order generally dominating population and zerging down zones. So it cannot be as broken as some people like to make out lol, as Resoulte defences and M3 Nerf wasn't already enough...

I expanded upon my thoughts so you could see why I react a certain way to certain ideas/changes... so you know why it is good and why it is bad, so its not just negative or criticism for criticism sake because there is always reasons... its because it tilts the balance of scales even more in one direction and that is a direction im naturally opposed to since live days and my time in ROR... if you want zerg wars, the saying if you cant beat them join them is last resort to show you how broken changes are if they are just forced through without any proper consideration in every aspect and circumstance of game... big and small, wb or zerg and its mostly zerg these days.

Cheers for reading
Wam