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[Dev] White Lion proposal

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Tesq
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Re: [Dev] White Lion proposal

Post#71 » Thu May 16, 2019 12:04 am

larsulu wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 11:17 pm
Manatikik wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:29 am
NoRKaLKiLLa wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:09 am
Spoiler:
Choppa needs to be engaged in combat for 10 seconds and loses 50% damage if it uses knockdown

Marauder needs to disrupt a magical attack in order to use knockdown.
Or use your aoe kd... In no universe can anyone argue Mara has worse/less utility than a WL. WL’s CC is not a problem at all.
mara aoe kd gives only free immunity.
also is on monstro tree.
mara aoe is used for wb play no ppl that wanna be mainly a dps and not a very def dd will go monstro till aoe KD, you loose too many stuff to get it and is not good as a tank one. Compared to him wl dont loose anything important look here:
RoR.builders - White Lion

this is just dumb, have pounce, brute pounce and leonine frenzy all in 1 build..... these 3 skills should all be on 13 pt of every mastery it has been done the same for mara woudns debuff of course wl can be op in some case when it pack stuff like those 3 skills all togheter...look which elf where it have whichbrew and rkd? 13 pt both!!!! then it's a matter to compare pounce to a KD and then "UNDERSTAND that you have to understand" it must be slap aswell onto 13 pt..


frankly speakign is fine for wl to have CS + 1/3 of these above but not CS with 2/3 or even **** 3/3!!!. The problem here is not CS..

then again for sure wl have issues than need to be solve with fix and buff but those are other problems...
Last edited by Tesq on Thu May 16, 2019 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Stophy22
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Re: [Dev] White Lion proposal

Post#72 » Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am

Ototo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:58 pm
MedV wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:55 pm
Ototo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 7:06 pm


That's a lie: https://officialrorbuilder.herokuapp.co ... mt=5217&t=

You have the AoE knockdown, all the abilities you listed, and 4 points to spare. Also the AoE knockdown doesn't require any gift, so you can keep using gift of brutality.
Im just gonna assume you're trolling, or have no idea at all how Mara works. Of course I meant you're going full Sav tree and then either Brut or Monstro. Your build is not viable in any play at all.
Im not speaking of viability. You said a thing, which is completely false. There is nothing that blocks you from getting the AoE knockdown more than being greedy and wanting ALL. Just that simple. Your statement was a lie, and now you are trying to change subjects. Period.
So you don’t have any idea how Mara works haha.
You need cutting claw (armor debuff) and wounds debuff thunderous blow from left tree. There is no way to get mutated aggressor and guillotine and have an aoe knock down. Now you can trade mutated and execute for aoe knockdown and initiative debuff but it’s a trade off. I’m not sure what WL has to give up to get Pounce and Armor debuff and KD but I believe that was what the original discussion was about.

Anyways

I think tesq makes a good point in serious group play WL is easily targeted and countered. But solo roam and pug the class over preforms drastically. Nerfing CS won’t break the class it just won’t 1 shot someone. Like I said earlier Destro has to combine 2 classes together to do what the WL has to do. (SH for his git em, and Mara with armor debuff) and that’s not really fair. I think specing for CS is taking away something that makes the class unique and shouldn’t be the case. Some things to consider

Riddance of the Armor debuff
(or reduced value. SH has no armor debuff and WL is a class mirror or SH and Mara somehow.)

pounce CD increased
(so you have to select target carefully and you can’t just change to a new person.)

I’m not sure how to help the white lion in serious group play because I tend to stay away from that scene, but making it so damage stems from the WL so he doesn’t have to rely on his pet. Maybe buffing “loner” specs to be the new Meta in group play.

The problem is simple: WL deletes players faster than anyone ever could dream in pug play. Pounce, armor debuff, coordinated strike, maybe another ability. All whist you are on the ground in a knock down.

A class that can kill someone so efficiently and easily shouldn’t have access to CC. It should be to group up with another player to give them that Assurance of a kill. Most WL roam around solo and do more than fine. A lot of people say the pets easy to kill...

preposterous.

It’s incredibly hard to kill anything when you’re disabled for the entire time you’re fighting and when you’re not disabled you’re dead.
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Manatikik
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Re: [Dev] White Lion proposal

Post#73 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:27 am

Stophy22 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am

So you don’t have any idea how Mara works haha.
You need cutting claw (armor debuff) and wounds debuff thunderous blow from left tree. There is no way to get mutated aggressor and guillotine and have an aoe knock down. Now you can trade mutated and execute for aoe knockdown and initiative debuff but it’s a trade off. I’m not sure what WL has to give up to get Pounce and Armor debuff and KD but I believe that was what the original discussion was about.
As stated earlier in this thread: you have to give up Thin the Herd (Outgoing Heal debuff), Cull the Weak (Guillotine), and Primal Fury (Mutated Aggressor) to get Brutal Pounce and Leonine Frenzy. Which is exactly the same thing you’d have to give up for AoE KD that every Mara in this thread seems to not comprehend.
Stophy22 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am
Anyways

I think tesq makes a good point in serious group play WL is easily targeted and countered. But solo roam and pug the class over preforms drastically. Nerfing CS won’t break the class it just won’t 1 shot someone. Like I said earlier Destro has to combine 2 classes together to do what the WL has to do. (SH for his git em, and Mara with armor debuff) and that’s not really fair. I think specing for CS is taking away something that makes the class unique and shouldn’t be the case. Some things to consider.
As has been stated at in the past that balance discussion should not revolve around solo or pug play. Fact of the matter is if you don’t put in an appropriate amount of effort/coordination you won’t feel the effects of balance. There is no issue with a geared WL jumping a solo cloth class and one shotting them if they don’t detaunt, have potions, and are not optimally defensively spec’d.
Stophy22 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am

Riddance of the Armor debuff
(or reduced value. SH has no armor debuff and WL is a class mirror or SH and Mara somehow.)

Squig Herder does have an armor debuff...
Stophy22 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am

pounce CD increased
(so you have to select target carefully and you can’t just change to a new person.)
WL has a an entire kit that revolves around its 10 CD rotation. And 99% of the time if the WL is vs’ing competent people he is not Pouncing every 10s because he cannot solo kill people in that rotation and his assist DPS cannot keep up with that fast of swaps that often.

Also the same CD as SH’s pounce.
Stophy22 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am

The problem is simple: WL deletes players faster than anyone ever could dream in pug play. Pounce, armor debuff, coordinated strike, maybe another ability. All whist you are on the ground in a knock down.

A class that can kill someone so efficiently and easily shouldn’t have access to CC. It should be to group up with another player to give them that Assurance of a kill. Most WL roam around solo and do more than fine. A lot of people say the pets easy to kill...

preposterous.

It’s incredibly hard to kill anything when you’re disabled for the entire time you’re fighting and when you’re not disabled you’re dead.

So in your own statement a WL shouldn’t be able to kill solo but solo players should be able to live from a frontloaded burst class? The entire game is balanced around group play and besides the pet’s damage being a little out of line it’s fine as is.

All this talk about being permanent CC’d is ridiculous. WL has a ST 3 second kd tied to his pet on a 30 second timer. That’s pretty much in line with every other Kd in the game with the added benefit of it being pseudo RKD and the added negative of it being tied to a buggy pet than can be killed relatively easily limiting its use. Fetch on a target for an extra 2s of ‘disable’is nice and all out in random solo encounters but you can’t waste your CC/immunity like that in any organized play for a move that doesn’t move someone out of guard range.


Once again: the solution to WL overtuned damage is to either revert the pet damage changes OR scale back TTK’s str/WS conversion.
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Re: [Dev] White Lion proposal

Post#74 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:09 am

Manatikik wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:27 am

As has been stated at in the past that balance discussion should not revolve around solo or pug play. Fact of the matter is if you don’t put in an appropriate amount of effort/coordination you won’t feel the effects of balance. There is no issue with a geared WL jumping a solo cloth class and one shotting them if they don’t detaunt, have potions, and are not optimally defensively spec’d.
You should not need to be optimally defensively spec'd stacked with the best potions to avoid being one shotted by any player. You should need to be optimally offensively specc'd, have potions, etc to HAVE A CHANCE to one shot another player.

I have not tried WL. My only contribution is that if WL players feel the class would lose its feel than I think it's a choice between limiting the skills choice along the lines of what is proposed, or scale down the amount of damage WL currently causes in burst. It's primarily to give the victims a chance to escape or respond, which with current WL rotations is impossible for a large number of classes. From an outside perspective, there may be some rationale for limiting damage, if lower tier WLs lose too much utility.

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Stophy22
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Re: [Dev] White Lion proposal

Post#75 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:16 am

Spoiler:
Manatikik wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:27 am
Stophy22 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am

So you don’t have any idea how Mara works haha.
You need cutting claw (armor debuff) and wounds debuff thunderous blow from left tree. There is no way to get mutated aggressor and guillotine and have an aoe knock down. Now you can trade mutated and execute for aoe knockdown and initiative debuff but it’s a trade off. I’m not sure what WL has to give up to get Pounce and Armor debuff and KD but I believe that was what the original discussion was about.
As stated earlier in this thread: you have to give up Thin the Herd (Outgoing Heal debuff), Cull the Weak (Guillotine), and Primal Fury (Mutated Aggressor) to get Brutal Pounce and Leonine Frenzy. Which is exactly the same thing you’d have to give up for AoE KD that every Mara in this thread seems to not comprehend.
Stophy22 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am
Anyways

I think tesq makes a good point in serious group play WL is easily targeted and countered. But solo roam and pug the class over preforms drastically. Nerfing CS won’t break the class it just won’t 1 shot someone. Like I said earlier Destro has to combine 2 classes together to do what the WL has to do. (SH for his git em, and Mara with armor debuff) and that’s not really fair. I think specing for CS is taking away something that makes the class unique and shouldn’t be the case. Some things to consider.
As has been stated at in the past that balance discussion should not revolve around solo or pug play. Fact of the matter is if you don’t put in an appropriate amount of effort/coordination you won’t feel the effects of balance. There is no issue with a geared WL jumping a solo cloth class and one shotting them if they don’t detaunt, have potions, and are not optimally defensively spec’d.
Stophy22 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am

Riddance of the Armor debuff
(or reduced value. SH has no armor debuff and WL is a class mirror or SH and Mara somehow.)

Squig Herder does have an armor debuff...
Stophy22 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am

pounce CD increased
(so you have to select target carefully and you can’t just change to a new person.)
WL has a an entire kit that revolves around its 10 CD rotation. And 99% of the time if the WL is vs’ing competent people he is not Pouncing every 10s because he cannot solo kill people in that rotation and his assist DPS cannot keep up with that fast of swaps that often.

Also the same CD as SH’s pounce.
Stophy22 wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:58 am

The problem is simple: WL deletes players faster than anyone ever could dream in pug play. Pounce, armor debuff, coordinated strike, maybe another ability. All whist you are on the ground in a knock down.

A class that can kill someone so efficiently and easily shouldn’t have access to CC. It should be to group up with another player to give them that Assurance of a kill. Most WL roam around solo and do more than fine. A lot of people say the pets easy to kill...

preposterous.

It’s incredibly hard to kill anything when you’re disabled for the entire time you’re fighting and when you’re not disabled you’re dead.

So in your own statement a WL shouldn’t be able to kill solo but solo players should be able to live from a frontloaded burst class? The entire game is balanced around group play and besides the pet’s damage being a little out of line it’s fine as is.

All this talk about being permanent CC’d is ridiculous. WL has a ST 3 second kd tied to his pet on a 30 second timer. That’s pretty much in line with every other Kd in the game with the added benefit of it being pseudo RKD and the added negative of it being tied to a buggy pet than can be killed relatively easily limiting its use. Fetch on a target for an extra 2s of ‘disable’is nice and all out in random solo encounters but you can’t waste your CC/immunity like that in any organized play for a move that doesn’t move someone out of guard range.


Once again: the solution to WL overtuned damage is to either revert the pet damage changes OR scale back TTK’s str/WS conversion.
It shouldn’t be able to kill so reliably by itself. Give the armor debuff to a shadow warrior and now at least they have to group up to recreate an insta death. Hey but I’m all for giving SH armor debuff and kd tied to horn squig and then fetch if you guys wanna play against it for a while.

Not that it’ll really affect you since you play in a dedicated 6 man every time I’ve seen you. But hey if it’s not a problem for you it’s not a problem for others right?

Edit: didn’t see all of your other points
-SH armor debuff is 2 second cast and has a lower value by around 600 possibly more so that doesn’t exist. He also can’t use it inside squig armor.
-Mara needs guilotine and mid tree abilities since it doesn’t have CS is what every white lion in this thread doesn’t seem to comprehend. Also knock down is in a tree (monstro) that he can’t immediately do damage in so he has to switch to either savagery or brutality to then follow up on that 2 second KD. 1 GCD to change, 1 GCD to use an ability that isn’t guillotine or cutting claw depending on what he gives up since some people think it’s viable to get mid tree instead of left tree.
-WL gets a kill every 10 seconds by itself so it doesn’t need anyone to keep up with it and assist dps. Or if it does it’s just a 2nd white lion since there is no better option damage wise or a ASW as they have a gap close 2 or an SM with morale 2. Orders got options to keep up my guy.

You’re absolutely bonkers if you think WL and Mara are in the same world in solo or group roam. WL just does it better. Group v group Mara might shine better but when he steps out of that group setting hes just a strong brawler by the end of the day. not every Mara has a dedicated group to just win and even then it’s not 100% of the time the Mara group wins. Group play is competitive and you have to be smart and good at the game. Solo pug play is different and WLs are apex predators. I can’t believe you can’t see this.
Last edited by Stophy22 on Thu May 16, 2019 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Stortz
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Re: [Dev] White Lion proposal

Post#76 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:46 am

The hardest but simplest solution to any of these problems lies in the Lion having a real path-finding.
What ever happened to this:


Click here to watch on YouTube

This solves some issues both pro-WL and against it. The pet can stay dangerous as long as it's not a tracking ghost nuke.
I also believe that the pet should not be treated as an NPC in the PVE sense: Meaning a punt should actually launch the lion in the air away just like any other player. I also don't think the pet calling should exist, the lion should just be there and automatically come back after a couple of seconds being dead.

Another thing:
I believe that the lion's abilities should come from my inputs. They should drain the lion's AP, but require my input to go off. That way, the burst damage from the lion comes from choices I make, rather than being a killer robot on it's own.

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zgolec
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Re: [Dev] White Lion proposal

Post#77 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:00 am

Ori wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:54 am
2. Reduce the speed of the pet, because now it is higher than the player
You obvously have no clue what you are talking about.
Yea, suuure... also remove racial tactic for gobbos. They move too fast. Mkay?
Stophy22 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:32 pm
Whatever changes that happen if the class stops being able to kill someone within 3 gcds (pounce, armor debuff, CS) I think it’ll be fair.
Punce, FO, CS = kill? Teach me mastah... My WL is 980str/500ws/20+crit and this combo might [but dont have to] insta kill like maybe... undergeared 20 lvl squishies that fail to detaunt :P

@Devs so you preparing another nerf to class? Whatever happened to Aza changes? Spining loner WL is still a joke for WB plays. Instead of simply nerfing only thing WL is atm good [killing pugs, solo squishies] do you plan any changes that this class will become viable pick for WBs? Atm WL can join only pug wbs and organised ones if you are on friendly terms with leader cause its subpar for WB plays, 0 cc, 0 utility and all you can do is spam slashing blade/echoing roar/whirling axe and make fluff dmg that has 0 burst comparing to other aoe mellee toons...

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Stophy22
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Re: [Dev] White Lion proposal

Post#78 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:18 am

Stophy22 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:32 pm
Whatever changes that happen if the class stops being able to kill someone within 3 gcds (pounce, armor debuff, CS) I think it’ll be fair.
Punce, FO, CS = kill? Teach me mastah... My WL is 980str/500ws/20+crit
[/quote]

Had a long post typed out but then my phone got rid of it. Long story short:

Don’t know why you’re acting like you can’t kill someone with 3-5 Abilites because that’s what happens. Maybe you’re specced wrong or undergeared? There are a few WLs I see during the hours I play and they are either not guardian spec or have no idea what they’re doing because I can usually fight them. But the other WLs that know how to click the 3 abilities and have the correct gear more than make up for those who are undergeared and lacking experience. The execute comes out often after CS if the target isn’t dead? But I thought that was implied with my post above.
Sorry
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Tesq
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Re: [Dev] White Lion proposal

Post#79 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:21 am

Manatikik wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:27 am

As stated earlier in this thread: you have to give up Thin the Herd (Outgoing Heal debuff), Cull the Weak (Guillotine), and Primal Fury (Mutated Aggressor) to get Brutal Pounce and Leonine Frenzy. Which is exactly the same thing you’d have to give up for AoE KD that every Mara in this thread seems to not comprehend.

i've to say this is a bit of a poor argument, you give up a skill you dont need since you have something mara done have:
-thin the herd(guillotine) -->CS (which it have also no target hp condition)

You give up a situaional very long cd time skill which is anyway hard to decide when use for a lower cd easier one:
-primal fury(mutated aggression)-->leonine frenzy

and for last.....outgoing heal debuff is a los? you serious man? like something an IB /WH can do almsot core /core or any other DD can do better with an incoming heall debuff (slayer/sw/bw/WH).....

sy but its impossible not see who have better trade out here, you are not even stance restricted as a mara for these stuff and the stuff you have to take tacticswise on masterys are not existing (just 1).

also think about how much wl player can gain from a simple pet and mastery re-arragement
Last edited by Tesq on Thu May 16, 2019 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Posts: 56

Re: [Dev] White Lion proposal

Post#80 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:40 am

Ok, some nice brain storming so far.

I say look at every pet damage abillity and tone them down a bit. 10% up to 40% damage reduction individually for each sklil + pounce.

So my suggestion, of "THE NERF"
- CC skills pounce and brutal pounce dmg reduced since the dmg is not so important here
- coordinated strike pet damage part lowerd up to discussion
- Leonine frenzy should not trigger CC immunity or remove any CC already applied

not so hard to implement for the DEV team i believe

For "THE BUFF" part
- make whirling axe core

now the hard part for the DEV team and maybe too much
- create a new sklil "Dismissing Roar" (or whatever :))
- requires Revenge tactic slotted
- If your lion goes below 50 % (30%...) HP pool you order it to withdraw from a fight activating Revenge! After the efect of Revenge tactic worns off you may summon new Lion pet with no AP cost

basically like Taste like chicken pet self kill, if you got my point, this will help WL player to decide when the pet gets too much heat.

Cheers

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