[Dev] White Lion proposal

[Sido]

I didn't read anything about auto-attack in this thread (besides Aurandilaz mentioning it), but I think it should be discussed because from what I saw in game it's a big part of the WL frontload.

Just to illustrate a bit my meaning, few days ago on one of my early-30 reroll (squishy sorc with medium armor pot on), I got hit for ~600 by Pounce, then 2373 (crit) by auto-attack, then CS for ~2.6k (pet+WL, probably BiS geared), died in 2 gcd (I'm fine with it btw, no rant/cry intended). As you can see the auto-attack took a huge part in the damage burst, but this number came without any action from the player, it's a simple very big free add damage between gcd. I would suggest to look at the current AA damage formula or the conditions to get it firing (iirc it's currently not live-like here), especially on this 2-hander dps class which is able to also boost AA haste through tactic.

[zgolec666]

None of these "proposals" make sense. They are "band aid" changes to issues which stem from class design, pet mechanic and changes done on live to a different version of game than what we currently have. (e.g. , massive 1.5k armor debuff which was jusitfied in 1.4.8 vs Warpforged armor level enemies, but here vs Anni/Conq/Vanq level enemies is total overkill)

The class design issue is having your whole burst rotation built into Pounce - Force Opportunity - Coordinated Strike. That's your onetrick pony rotation, you might have 5-10 other abilities in Hotbar, but guess what, why bother pressing even half of them. When 90% of burst output comes from said ability combo + Autoattack dmg... what is the purpose of the remaining abilities given to a class.
Oh right, then there exist things like Pet Fetch, Pet KD and Pet Snare... which make things complicated, in ways that favour WL to win most 1v1 encounters, and be their "Achilles heel" in any proper fight where targets have Guards and heals and your pet is kinda nuked as first fight priority (and not getting healed).

Then you also forget that the class just sucks in largescale, where meta favours BW/Engi/Slayer... and you are more interested in fixing "1v1" issues than something as fundamental as WL role as a dps in the largescale endgame content, which varies from regular warbands to pushing forts with whole realm (and the absurdly amazing design of spamming AoE into door funnel for 45mins in a Fort lord room) and to even clearing dungeons which are built around AoE use vs waves of mobs. All of above doesn't matter I guess, or are deemed lower priority.

Then you have issue of AP management. Your one trick pony rotation leaves you out of AP, and as anyone playing WL knows, pet has a mind of their own and is basically retarded when you get even minor lag and it randomly might to do something or just vanish.

The class has so many issues, and none of them would be fixed by what OP provides. You'd rather poke the mentioned issues with a stick, maybe move something bit around, but end result would still be same old Pounce FO + CS rotation being all there is for the class.

How about you look at;
-lack of viable AoE build
-lack of alternative ST rotations and other St abilities being often not even worth having in hotbar
-Pet from Another World & "What Lag, Server Is Fine" & "Why is the Pet Gone" issues
-AP management and managing sustained dmg vs design around same old 3skill rotation, especially when it comes to PvE dungeons and not ending in situation of "welcome classes" vs "why would we want that class" situations.
-Pet dying coz no heals -> still OP in 1v1, but pretty much useless bag of exploding meat in any large fight or even in PvE with random boss dmg melting the pet

This.

[peterthepan3]

My friends a RR6x and I play a RR58 BG. Whenever I’ve given an example it’s been from the POV of my BG. I’m not talking about my other characters from my signature but even if that were the case isn’t RoR supposed to hold the ideal of no giant gear creep between rank 40s? Meaning a fresh RR40 and a RR80 should be able to comfortably brawl, with the advantage going to the RR80 of course...

Plus just to make something clear a class shouldn’t be able to “one shot” another class regardless of the difference in gear. There should be options to Counterplay. Maybe it’s an unpopular opinion...

On my BG I handle WLs pretty well, but I will never win. 2 rotations of CS and FO tears through 8k hp and 4.5k armor pretty easily. Also sporting a 0% chance to be crit. Not sure what I’m doing wrong maybe I’ll figure it out soon but my damage just doesn’t compare or give me an opportunity to kill the lion. KD and exile at 100 hate to break combat so they decide to kill another target is really the only option.

Sorry for slight derail:

I'm sorry, but with 8khp and 4.5k armor you should be able to handle WLs very, very well if you are spec'd/geared appropriately (self-heal is mandatory if you insist on talking about 1v1, and you might want to try out a Malice/Anguish spec).

Being able to kill undergeared/lowlvld players within a few GCDs isn't exclusive to WL: sure, they can do it better than other classes, but that doesn't mean a high rr Magus/Sorc/BW/Engi/WH/WE can't get similar results against undergeared/lowlvld players.

Aside: I don't know why we are talking about solo experiences to such an extent...

[Valarion]

Im glad that this issue is finally being seriously discussed, as you cant have a class with the highest mobility in the game running around with the highest burst potential.

First, while noble, Im skeptical that any changes to WL will result in a longterm fix here. They will either hit too hard, too soft or will be temporary, most especially with the inevitable gear creep we all saw on live. Also, while I would like to nerf burst even harder, I also paradoxically dont want to even touch it because I dont feel it cant be done without ruining the class or the interesting role that WLs have.

In order for balance to be restored in the galaxy, we need to stop trying to correct the situation so much as we should mirror it. One way would be to grant melee SH (or even marauder) the last few remaining tools needed to compete. In the case of SHs, which already have pounce, you could probably just buff their pets and grant them equal burst in the form of a LF or CS, but Im sure the veteran SHs can propose even better changes.

The message Im trying to send is: A lot of us veteran gamers would be fine with classes like WL that are situationally op as long as there was a better mirror that was equal in terms of mobility and raw burst potential they present(and right now marauder simply isnt cutting it even though I do love the class).

[Xergon]

I'm not WL player so cant say much from WL PoV (only lowbie), although i understand a lot other classes and i experienced burst that WL can deliver. Also many of my friends who does play that class agrees that class is simply NoBrain killer.

For example on my Zeal (60+ in full Conq) i don't fear any other class like WL's, i cant heal myself even through a detaunt, and when i check combat logs, i see Pets damage doing more damage than my 82RR WH , that means there is something wrong for sure...

Solution to this, hard for me to say, i would listen to more experienced players who already have spoken here and they seems to knows/understand how class works.

From my understanding PET is essential for this class, and if WL players are saying that it dies too easy but at same time it does insane damage then how about make transition ? Nerf pet's damage but increase its defense so it can survive more.

Still i would like to see bigger changes/reworks to this class, topic refers mostly to ST change which wont make WL WB friendly class anyway, it will still remains not viable as its mirror Mara.

[roadkillrobin]

Id look into a sollution removing the pet from game.
Making Hunter into a sustained dps ST tree focused on AA self boosting. Axeman into ST burst tree AP management tree. And Guardian into a AoE dps tree with group utillity as a slight 2ndary function. (Pet buffs could be used to buff a friendly target instead of the pet. For example Brutal Pounce could be used to buff a BW and make his next AoE attack a AoE KD, but if noone to buff the skill wouldn't do anything)

[vanbuinen77]

Its not the WL damage.

Its the mobility.

Try giving the mara a pounce like ability and you will see similar results.

As far as burst, a sorc or bw is doing the same damage at range, but thats ok right.

[Mausini]

Shuffling the skills won't do the job from my point of view. The damage is still going to be there but it might need one or two more GCD's to do the job of bursting a squishy down.

The general problem is that WL is a very mobile and bursty class and people that get caught by him (mostly solo) do simply not like it. If you cut down his burst people will still complain about his mobility. If you cut down the mobility people will complain about his burst.

But mobility is the more problematic part of the issue because with it you are able to deliver the damage on spot and you are very sticky vs kitting targets.

Give pounce a 20 sec. cooldown and go on with small iterations like lowering the pet damage. Give yourself and the community some time to think about smaller changes that makes WL more WB viable.

For example:
- Take a look over the more useless tactics like Stalker, Threatening Distraction or Full Grown and give them some WB buff/debuff or AOE components that makes WL an asset in party/WB play.
- Switch Lions Fury and Lions Heart into Axeman and Fey Illusion + one of the new tactics into Hunter and and make FI a AOE attack with some kind of effect.
- Switch Pack Hunting into Axeman and one of the new tactics with WB focus into Hunter.

Get rid of all the player to pet dependencies in tactics like Pack Synergy but lower the pet damage as compensation might be a good idea too.

[Atropik]

Its not the WL damage.

Its the mobility.

Try giving the mara a pounce like ability and you will see similar results.

As far as burst, a sorc or bw is doing the same damage at range, but thats ok right.

I'd say WL has its damage because of its mobility, or lets say, he has an option to preload half of his burst potential and also cc component. Whenever every other class can put only 2 skills onto cc'ed opponents head, - wl can put 3,and he also has a pet hitting lal.

On top of this WL has Coord. Strikes, which hits over 2k base non-crit damage.
On top of this Wl has 1.5k undefendeable armor debuff on 10 sec cd. And i havent said a word about LF, or2h weapon + aa haste tactic combo yet xd.

On practice Wl pressing 12345 which are:
- Leonine frenzy
- Brutal pounce
- Pounce
- FO
- CS
and after that any squishy class in a 65ft range losses 5-6k hp if wl is unlucky with crits. As you can see only FO and CS are have to be applied in a melee range, that why it looks like wl killing people with a single blow.

For sure, this looks a little bit gamebreaking from a pugger pov, on the other hand Peter says - their 3 men 6/6 community feels fine with it.

Idk about the gamedev, this is a privet server after all, but if balancing is somehow on the table atm, i se only 2 possible solutions:
- Decrease FO armor debuff value,
- Remove pet from the game.

And no, mara will never hit like that, but i cant wait to see maradeurs pouncing around, that would be a thing!

[xanderous]

WL damage is too high for the tools they have, pet survivability is considerably higher than any other pet in the game so i don't think its correct to state that is its disadvantage. Scale pet and players damage down to lower amount and remove some of their tools, that's all that really needs to be done here.

My only other argument that might settle it entirely would be to give Mara a pet that follows along the same rules as WL and an engage mechanic similar to ASW. That way Mara/MSH vs WL/ASW might be a thing though MSH would still be weaker vs the ASW in 6v6 so thats more work i guess.

Additionally remove mara/WL ranged M1 root, these morales make tanks champions challenge completely pointless or instead give em to the tanks to use, this would force more group play rather than the current meta of DD's catching unguarded targets for easy kill mode.