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Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#11 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:29 pm

btw kobs m4 nerf is nonsense, 2x kobs will purge all morales instead 1 !? what has changed?? any raw moral remover is broken
please go with over time moral drain like BO have it now... or put a cap to till where kobs can remove moral (for exemple till m2).
and dont change BO moral drain just nerf kobs one to behave like BO

kobs m4 --> purge 3600 ISTANT / Black ork m4 ---->purge only 30 sec of moral (so per current gain 25/s x 30 = 750) IN 12 SECONDS

try BO formula which is alredy more than 20% of moral bar currently, your value propose a 50% it's still too high.
Last edited by Tesq on Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Tesq
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#12 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:55 pm

Natherul wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:17 pm Gonna note it here now, please refrain from using colors in your posts. It only gets harder to read if your posts look like a darn Christmas tree

And wonshot, its 3 aarchetypes remaining. MDPS, RDPS and Healer :D

What have you against my post? it's cleary read-able and i well separate each moral i talked about for you to read it BETTER not worst ! all color has been used to make in evidence important difference , there is not too much color unless your eyes are broken sy.... anyway also what did you expected?

dont like this / i like this one ?

you should be happy ppl take time analyze and give you feedback , you KIDDING US stop the censorshit, " please".. remove the spoil and let ppl read what i wrote and stop make such comments

you know that with me now you just behaved like you basically asked someone a complicated analysis , then let him reply for in the end spit in his face right? same if it was wargrimmir...

if you prefer i can do 2k shitons of mini post 1 per moral if you prefer since you scare of "big one" ...
Last edited by Tesq on Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:16 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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zachary
Posts: 71

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#13 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:12 pm

M1 - Quit Yer Squabblin'

Current - 100' party buff, 10% parry and dodge for 30s
Proposed - Buff self and defensive target, 15% parry and dodge

This gets us down to a point where looking at M1's we consider what base level of efficiency they have. The Core M1's are generally single target or self buffs. With Black Orc and Swordmaster however, these are group buffs, BO in particular with a very long duration. This is clearly out of place and far stronger in effect than other archtypes. Instead of a group buff, this will be self and defensive target, with a 5% bump in effectiveness, but only for 20s instead of 30s.
As a BO, I'm not used to worrying about my 'defensive target', other than who I have guarded - a quick check of the abilities on officialrorbuilder shows that none of them pay any attention to the 'defensive target'. Perhaps make this affect the guarded target if there is one, with a fallback to defensive target if no one is guarded?
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Rockalypse
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Posts: 365

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#14 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:32 pm

I will start from saying that I realy like dynamic from first to second thread. I feel that most of proposed changes are solid and totaly worth a try. Ones I ahve doubt - I will list bellow.

wargrimnir wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm Blackguard

M4 - Khaine's Warding - Tank Tree

Current - 100' party buff, when any group member blocks heal group for 1200, 10s duration
Proposed - 100' party buff, increase all avoidance by 20% for 10s, BG also receives 3000pt absorb for 10s and 100 Hate

The existing M4 was rather odd to have on a tank, and the block requirement was rather limiting as you might be the only tank in the group wielding a cookie sheet. A flat avoidance buff provides a more immediate benefit for the group, and true to form with the Blackguard they get a smaller absorb bubble and Hate refill for themselves.

This morale, in it's current state, is unique and possibly best defensive morale in game. Let me elaborate on that. It allows your whole group to survive any aoe or even morale bombing as it does not give you flat avoidance ignored by morale, but rather gives your group tool to outheal all recieved damage, the more your group under attack the more it will be healed. This morale works realy well with "None shall pass" from same tree and if we are talking standart 2-2-2 warband composition you will have atleast two blocking characters to make it work.
Rather than change it I would rather propose to have more defensive morales that outheal incoming damage as they are only tool to counter huge morale drops, which prolongs TTK and makes for longer and more enjoyable fights, while flat avoidance gives nothing in that regard as right now (before morale changes for other classes are rolled out) morales make difference not other skills.

wargrimnir wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm Ironbreaker

M2 - Skin of Iron

Current - Damage reduced to 1 for 5s
Proposed - 10s self buff, when attacked in melee disarm attacker for 5s

The existing implementation certainly had some positive feedback (expected as the invlunerability effect is obviously very strong), but there was also some significant confusion about what we meant. Part of what we wanted to change here was the invlunerability factor. Even with Shield Wall, you can still get hit from behind, and this is only an M2. Total damage immunity is pretty questionable for any effect. Limiting the effect to melee attackers would give more coverage than shield wall in the sense that any direction is affected, also prevents attacks from peeling off you and hitting your mates (if they disarmed after the first hit). This wouldn't affect ranged units, which leaves another window of opportunity open for the enemy realm. It's still very much a defensive tool, isn't total cheese, and provides a benefit for your melee groupmates as well as yourself.

Free immunties to CC are not a good thing. If we dont want to have IB with damage immunity what if this skill will give IB 2000-3000 toughness instead? After toughness cap was introduced it will still let some damage to go though, while surely giving good survivability and it will suit morale name better too.

wargrimnir wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm Ironbreaker

M4 - Earthen Renewal - Utility Tree

Current - 100' party buff, heal 1197 (3 ticks for 399 over 3s), add 240 AP.
Proposed - 100' party buff, 250AP over 10s (5 ticks of 50 AP every 2s) and on enemy spell cast deal 400 damage to caster.

This was a pretty terrible heal for an M4 to begin with so that's not much to drop anyway, but feedback did request to keep the AP feed. This will be spread out over 10s along with a magic Riposte type effect for the group. Since this is a morale AP feed, it should not require characters to be idle to tick. Normally AP only regenerates in-between attacks.

On this one I am not fully sure how it will work, but if 400damage part won't have any cooldown or limited caster number this can be very, very potent offensive morale - if you will have 4 IBs using it during funnel when all AOE is pooring down on closed space of door portal you will have 1600 dmg/sec against ALL casters that do mentioned AOE.

Hope I was brief enough, again, great work, keep it up!

Edit: added class names to morale for easier read.
Last edited by Rockalypse on Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Collateral
Posts: 1494

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#15 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:35 pm

As a bo player, I must say that deafening bellow seems very strong. Why increase the damage? The 1s cast time increase is definitely cool and interesting, and I was wondering when such an effect would be introduced (I'm not aware of any such ability, other than pve mobs and bosses). I definitely wouldn't increase the damage, as it's unnecessary. As for the 1s cast increase, I guess we will see how it works out.

Also the new m4 that knocks back seems super strong (but I like the falvour). A couple of bos would wreck the order tanklines in any funnel. I understand why you put a 50% self snare on that, it makes sense. My question is, as it's a morale does it stack with ability snares? In rvr you are already basically perma snared, so if this stacks you will be reduced to walking speed or less. I'm not sure how it would work in funnels, but I feel that it will be very powerful. Also I'm not sure how it's a utility morale. You could probably swap yer nothin and can't touch us, the right tree is already far better than mid tree, and giving something strong to mid tree could revive it a bit. Although it's an m4, so I'm not sure if the effect would be too great. Anyway that's stuff for balance discussions.

Skin of iron - increadibly too strong. Put a couple of ibs in your wb and watch destro melees cry rivers. The only reason I'm saying it's too strong is because it's an m2. Instead I would make it so it affects the next 5-6 attackers perhaps, if that can be done.

Immaculate defense nerf is unnecessary imo, others explained why.

Now speaking in general about morales in dps tree. The difference in damage values and types is just weird. So chosen gets 1200 damage and a snare, which is kinda meh, while ib gets 2400 damage while already having a 40% snare ability for which they dont have to wait to build up, while being only 5 seconda shorter (every ib and their mother specs earthshatter)? The bo m4 has the same problem. It's a weird mix of dps and utility (cc in this case). I can't imagine ever speccing for it in any scenario. If I want snare badly I would take big brawling (even if it's just bad). I honeatly can't think of anything to make these morales better (chosen and bo). I would probably rather see a new ability instead.

The new m3 is unnecessary, others explained why.

Sm shadow blades is too strong. I agree with wonshot about pulls. They just mess up rvr so bad. But in case you keep it, damage is too high and duration too long. So I would reduce both.

Now to instant morale drains. Even if bg got the solar flare, no proper wb will use them. When you have chosen and bo with pumps and morales such as bo m3, you simply don't need bg. Again, this is a problem of class balance, something one morale can't change.

I agree with tesq about instant morale drains. They are just cheese that ruins the gameplay experience imo. They create imbalance, and are hard to balance around. I'm talking about big morale drains like solar flare, mara drain is another thing (it can also be cheesed but to a far lesser extent, and a bit harder to pull off).

All in all, some changes are for the better, with some interesting new ideas. But still some things have to be fleshed out, and some standards need to be set.

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Onemantankwall
Posts: 523

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#16 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:39 pm

M4 - In Malekith's Name - Utility Tree

Current - 30' PBAOE, 1800dmg and 5s Silence
Proposed - 30' PBAOE, 1200dmg and drain 1200 morale

Adding this in as a mirror for the Solar Flare morale from KotBS fits with this spec line better. It also breaks up direct class mirroring and provides the Blackguard with a good warband level tool to bring to large engagements.


I understand that such a change would give bgs a role in wbs and to break mirrors but leaving the orginal solar flare on the KING of tanks seems abit odd.
Why is the guy who gets everything able to keep everything?
I'd call this a step in the right direction but only a half step at best.
Giving it to chosen wasnt as bad, as chosen has enough (still worse) utility to compete just below the king . Now you have to bring a bg into the wb mix removing a better utility tank just to compete with a realm that can simply bring the tank of all trades with no downside of shunning the othrr 2? Funky balancing imo.
maybe a middle ground can be met where the king gets taken down a notch one day so other tanks can shine? Who knows /shrug maybe 1 day
Last edited by Onemantankwall on Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#17 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:43 pm

Onemantankwall wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:39 pm M4 - In Malekith's Name - Utility Tree

Current - 30' PBAOE, 1800dmg and 5s Silence
Proposed - 30' PBAOE, 1200dmg and drain 1200 morale

Adding this in as a mirror for the Solar Flare morale from KotBS fits with this spec line better. It also breaks up direct class mirroring and provides the Blackguard with a good warband level tool to bring to large engagements.


I understand that such a change would give bgs a role in wbs and to break mirrors but leaving the orginal solar flare on the KING of tanks seems abit odd.
Why is the guy who gets everything able to keep everything?
I'd call this a step in the right direction but only a half step at best.
Giving it to chosen wasnt as bad, as chosen has enough (still worse) utility to compete just below the king maybe a middle ground can be met where the king gets taken down a notch? Who knows /shrug

a moral which will be never be slot, because its on useless mastery, it's a joke mirror , yes they mirror it and then place it on the worst most useless mastery in whole game for rvr for a tool you are require to use only in rvr; on top a being a false nerf since moral bar is 3600 points, so now order wb will bring 2x 2h kobs instad one for fortress trololololol

/clap not for dev but for ppl beliving this is a serious nerf

moreover IT WAS ALREDY PRESENT ON BLACK ORK, why remove black ork moral drain with the correct value from original warhammer dev and joke mirror it on BG ?
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Dabbart
Posts: 2248

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#18 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:03 pm

Spoiler:
M3 - Clear the Skies - NEW

Previous - Grants a Hold the Line buff to your group for 12s - rejected
Proposed - Grants a 3000pt Absorb for Magic/Ranged damage for group members within 100' for 12s - Shield Required

The thought behind a shield-only morale was to provide defenses to your group. Using Hold The Line was a bit lazy and considering tanks already have this available and spammed pretty frequently during warband situations didn't really fit the need. Also some people assumed we were removing the existing Hold The Line ability, which was not the case. It was just a placeholder name as it would carry a similar effect. Alternatively, a 3000pt ranged damage absorb will allow a push into funnel situations, excluding melee from the absorb allows counterplay from the frontline. This will not negate morale damage.
With this, a 6man pushing with staggered M3s would have 3k+3k(6k) ranged/melee absorp, and 4.5k+4.5k(9k) melee absorp(tank, tank, healer, healer). That doesn't seem excessive to anyone? Even if Clear the Skies is ranged only. Yea, I'm sure healers morale changes are on the cards too, but you can't balance in a void and ignore combinations. And this is on M3 timers.


Spoiler:
M2 - Distracting Bellow

Current - Range 100', target and enemies within 30' of target have damage reduced by 50%
Proposed - 50' radius from user, enemies have damage reduced by 40%

Concerns around this morale was the significant reduction of range with the previous proposal. However, one of the reasons we proposed this in the first place was due to the range being very odd to begin with. Shouts simply don't work as a long range targeted AOE, and tanks really don't need to be 100' away from a target to make it effective. Instead of a 30' Cone effect, this has been adjusted to a 50' radius from the tank. This can be used while closing in on the backline, as tanks like to do, or to bring an enemy melee train to a grind with their damage dropping off. Both use cases should be easy enough to pull off.
30ft radius of the affect was the part of this morale that was weak. 50' radius is huge, and w/o any target needed. Is this not too easy to pull off safely? 2 tanks can nerf the entire damage output of a funnel(one to either side), and since a WB would only need 1-2 tanks running this to give a 40% bonus to the new M3 absorps.... Not to mention I was under the impression targetted shouts was the basis for the chosen/kotbs aura's at some point...


Spoiler:
M1 - Banish Weakness

Current - Remove all Hex/Curse/Ailments, gain 50AP/200HP for each
Unchanged

Feedback on this ability during the last proposal was very positive for the default version. Going to leave it as is.
I bet it was. No one wants to lose their CW. Doesn't mean it's balanced.


Spoiler:
M1 - Rock Clutch

Current - 5' range, 900 damage, 5s unbreakable root
Proposed - 30' range, 900 damage, 5s unbreakable root
Note - Marauder M1 Flames of Fate, and White Lion M1 Ensnare will be mirrored to this when implemented

When it comes to morales that basically have the same exact effect at different efficiencies, well. Who knows why there's a discrepancy between these three. Some will try to qualify Destro as having better morale pumps, so the Mara one is weaker, but the WL is stronger, and then you have the IB which is far weaker than both of them, but it's on a tank so it's supposed to be? Mara/WL have a full 65' range and IB have 5' because traps and chaos magic are more ranged than rock magic? None of this fits right, Ensnare/FoF are both very strong, so we're squishing them all into a common effect with the same duration, range, and damage, all somewhere in the middle. This ends up being a nice buff for IB, and a nerf for WL and Mara, while bringing all three on par with each other.
**** yea! 30' unbreakable instead of 65'! Hell's yea! I hate that Mara M1, as I feel everyone else does. A slight WL nerf too helps the "pain" go down. but 30ft might be a little short honestly.


Spoiler:
M4 - Flawless Defense - Tank Tree

Current - 100' party buff, increase all avoidance by 50% for 10s
Proposed - 100' party buff, increase all avoidance by 30% for 10s

50% is too damn high! Relative to other tank morales anyway. Sure they don't get anything for themselves, but at 30% it's still the strongest group avoidance buff in the game.
But compared to even the new ID, why would you run this instead? avoidance can be debuffed. Maybe increase duration?


Spoiler:
M1 - Guardian of Light

Current - Self absorb 3600 damage for 30s
Unchanged

This is a fairly strong M1, but it's literally the same effect and duration as Archmage, so not unheard of.
You're welcome.


Spoiler:
M4 - Can't Touch Us - Tank Tree, M4 - Shield of Valor - Tank Tree

Current - 100' party buff, +200 AP and 4500 absorb for 15s
Unchanged (SM changed to match)
I like it. Only point, is the same as Clear the Skies. But, as it's a M4 and not M3, so that matters far less imo.


Spoiler:
M1 - Wings of Heaven

Current - Pounce up to 100' feet (really?) to your target. Snare enemies in the area by 60% for 10s
Proposed - Pounce up to 45' to your target, deal 600 damage to enemies within 20' when you land.

Bringing this range down to 45' and adding a bit of AOE splash damage on the landing instead of a vicious 60% snare should bring it in line with M1 effectiveness. Problems with very long movements like this come in two flavors, magically appearing tank elves due to server latency (kind of looks like warping), and the ability to get to places that probably shouldn't be gotten to. 45' is plenty for a front line tank to reasonably hop around.
But, but! I love that morale! Losing the snare makes it worthless as anything other than a M1 damage morale. As a 45' pounce will put you well behind a kiting target. However, that 60% snare stacked with other snares, which made Destro start to RP walk(which I loved). Adding damage to those close to where you land basically turns this into a Hopping Raze at M1 doesn't it? Would anyone use it outside of Funnels or morale pushes? How would a damage component make it useful for it's intended purpose?

Can we adjust the snare % rather than remove it entirely? a 25% snare would be sufficient, or keep it 60% but get rid of the AoE affect.

That was also SMs ONLY AoE snare, which (for me at least) led to it being used in moments when it technically shouldn't of(ie, when I am right in the middle of a melee train, I pounce a dude 5ft from me to snare the entire group). So I do understand the necessary change. Allow me to drop an entirely different proposal, adjust the snare % based on the distance to the targetted enemy from the SM start point, with the higher the %/range the shorter the duration of the snare. Add a small Puddle snare effect(ie, you can go around it) to where the SM landed(non-stacking with other snares).

I wont argue about the range. If mara and WL root gets lessened, then yes this one should be as well.

Thanks for reading.
Last edited by Dabbart on Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Onemantankwall
Posts: 523

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#19 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:06 pm

Tesq wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:43 pm
Onemantankwall wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:39 pm M4 - In Malekith's Name - Utility Tree

Current - 30' PBAOE, 1800dmg and 5s Silence
Proposed - 30' PBAOE, 1200dmg and drain 1200 morale

Adding this in as a mirror for the Solar Flare morale from KotBS fits with this spec line better. It also breaks up direct class mirroring and provides the Blackguard with a good warband level tool to bring to large engagements.


I understand that such a change would give bgs a role in wbs and to break mirrors but leaving the orginal solar flare on the KING of tanks seems abit odd.
Why is the guy who gets everything able to keep everything?
I'd call this a step in the right direction but only a half step at best.
Giving it to chosen wasnt as bad, as chosen has enough (still worse) utility to compete just below the king maybe a middle ground can be met where the king gets taken down a notch? Who knows /shrug

a moral which will be never be slot, because its on useless mastery, it's a joke mirror , yes they mirror it and then place it on the worst most useless mastery in whole game for rvr for a tool you are require to use only in rvr; on top a being a false nerf since moral bar is 3600 points, so now order wb will bring 2x 2h kobs instad one for fortress trololololol

/clap not for dev but for ppl beliving this is a serious nerf

moreover IT WAS ALREDY PRESENT ON BLACK ORK, why remove black ork moral drain with the correct value from original warhammer dev and joke mirror it on BG ?
The idea is to bring BGs into wb usefulness during funnels only issue with that (unlike order's knights) that takes away superior utility in every other situation in rvr while knights can still stack without any draw backs.

You're essentially nerfing destro wbs just to attempt to compete with a single op class during certain situations
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ahzzag
Posts: 23

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#20 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:40 pm

You wont bring usefulness with this m4- In Malekith's Name to an BG in WB play cause you may be forced to play this Moral at the top of an orvr crap tree, while leaving most useful, not even comparable other useful 2h BG Debuffs behind. If i could chose i would prefer to leave this as it is and not to be told by WB Leaders to spec an crap tree cause of one Moral 4.

Maybe this is just my personal perspective on this one.

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