Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

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Onemantankwall
Posts: 401

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#21 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:04 pm

What seems to be hilarious from V1 to V2 we go from putting order morales in check (removal of sm pounce chosen gets competeable knight m4 to a reverse further destro nerf where chosens back to mehtastic morales compared to its mirrors sm gets to keep their gap closer and knights get to remain supreme with a funky bg change down a unused tree ill have to reread the "feedback" in version one because seems alot of order whine has crushed the hopes of a closer to balance morale game
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Detangler
Posts: 139

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#22 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:36 pm

Quick comparison of the big damage and range m4s for Order v. Chaos.

IB 45 degree 65' cone, deal 2400 damage
KotBS 65' line, 1200 damage with 1800 over 9s (3 ticks at 600)
SM 30' PBAOE channel, 2700 damage over 9s (900x3 ticks at 3s), Pull up to 4 random targets up to 45' away to the center - ignores immunities.

BO 1200dmg instant in a 40' line, with 3200dmg over 16s and 40% snare for 16s (8 dot ticks for 400 every 2s)
Chosen 40' line, 1200dmg with a 40% snare for 15s
BG 40' line, 1800dmg with a medium knockback

Takeaways from this comparison:

1. Poor Chosen still gets the worst damage m4 of all tanks.
2. Destro gets shortest range
3. Destro gets highest damage m4 over time (BO). Considerably higher than the rest.
4. Order gets highest insta damage m4 with best range (IB)
5. Order gets more high damage (1800+) m4s (again, poor Chosen. RoR's punching bag) With a healthy mix of tanks on each side, overall damage numbers do make a difference assuming people actually spec to m4s after this change.


Overall i like the changes, but some of the above damage numbers/range should be tweaked. One side should not get best damage AND best range.
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Jeliel80
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#23 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:40 pm

"
M3 - Deafening Bellow

Current - 1200 damage within 30' and a 5s silence
Proposed - 1500 damage within 30' and a 1s buildup time for 10s

Damage bumped up, but we're keeping the buildup time debuff. This is instant damage, so the effectiveness would be better than Raze for burst damage which would give Black Orc one of the better M3's for damage spikes. Based on the inital feedback over buildup time, I don't feel enough explanation was given. The 1s buildup time would apply to all abilities, even instant casts would have a short buildup time, which would cause a rather annoying (for the enemy) cast bar on anything they try to do. Even with the GCD being less time than the buildup, the delay imposed would interfere with melee attacks and instant casts that rely on being able to chain abilities together.
"

That seems absolutely over the top, extremely powerful.

"M4 - Immaculate Defense

Current - 75% damage reduction for group members within 100' for 10s
Proposed - 60% damage reduction for group members within 100' for 10s

This one is simple, ID is overperforming compared to spec'd M4's. We want the spec choices at the top of the tree to be better options, and part of this is toning down the existing core morale."

That is a monumental nerf to a necessary tool for pushes, changing specced M4 instead if necessary seems a way better solution.


In general many nerfs seem way too strong, hitting with a nuclear weapon instead of chiselling down (if necessary at all).

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Onemantankwall
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#24 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:57 pm

Then the arguement that we'll nerf sm pounce range (but not remove it) and give front line tanks (not squishy mdps) a 45ft pull instead to make up for it
so not only do they get to keep solar on their god tank sm gets to keep its small scale gap closer they also get the nail in the morale coffin a 45ft pull (on a tank!!!) Into those lovely solar flare spamming knights once again with no sacrifice to wb comp.

And you thought the zerg was bad before (yikes)
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Nameless
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#25 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:13 pm

Imo moral ignoring immunities (bo and sm) should not exist. Immunities are put for a reason and each exeption ruin overall balance (yes I am poiting at zealots direction also)
Mostly harmless

Dabbart
Posts: 1970

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#26 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:17 pm

Onemantankwall wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:57 pm
Then the arguement that we'll nerf sm pounce range (but not remove it) and give front line tanks (not squishy mdps) a 45ft pull instead to make up for it
so not only do they get to keep solar on their god tank sm gets to keep its small scale gap closer they also get the nail in the morale coffin a 45ft pull (on a tank!!!) Into those lovely solar flare spamming knights once again with no sacrifice to wb comp.

And you thought the zerg was bad before (yikes)
Hold the phone, removing the Snare and reducing range to 45ft is one HELL of a nerf to SM pounce. 45ft gap closer, without any form of snare on a class that has no AoE snare. Yay.

Also, how can you say there is no sacrifice to WBs for specing into any M4 that isn't ID? Nevermind the mastery requirements. Besides the fact, how do you spam a M4... At best it's 1min cd. Or did you mean having a bunch of KotBS using it? Sorry if misunderstood.

I agree with the SM pull though. Any pull that ignores immunities is OP. But it's a M4 that requires you to murder your spec to gain(regardless of how you run your SM, grabbing the M4, WW[if you're up there you might as well], KD, and absorp bubble leaves you with 7pts RR40. Thats before any defensive tactics), and it's not ID. but yes, it is quite powerful. I just don't see it as game breaking. 4 players pulled w/i 30ft on 1min cd(if you have a AM morale pumping you) isn't going to shatter any defenses that a well timed Z WoI, engi pull, choppa pull or magus pull wouldn't. Hell, with only a 30ft range and no snare component, arguably SM AoE punt would have a more lasting effect on a defensive line.

Btw, please explain if you're seeing something I'm not. Calling it OP doesn't really help, how will it be used that could break the game? present some situations it could be game breaking, and I'm sure the dev's will adjust...

Last point, I remember awhile back discussion about having some Morales on longer CD timers than others, is this still being thought of? As increasing CD would be the best way to balance something that is powerful, but you don't want used on CD in a morale pump group.

mufinka1234
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#27 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:25 pm

Once again order gets the butt

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Onemantankwall
Posts: 401

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#28 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:40 pm

Dabbart wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:17 pm
Onemantankwall wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:57 pm
Then the arguement that we'll nerf sm pounce range (but not remove it) and give front line tanks (not squishy mdps) a 45ft pull instead to make up for it
so not only do they get to keep solar on their god tank sm gets to keep its small scale gap closer they also get the nail in the morale coffin a 45ft pull (on a tank!!!) Into those lovely solar flare spamming knights once again with no sacrifice to wb comp.

And you thought the zerg was bad before (yikes)
Hold the phone, removing the Snare and reducing range to 45ft is one HELL of a nerf to SM pounce. 45ft gap closer, without any form of snare on a class that has no AoE snare. Yay.

Also, how can you say there is no sacrifice to WBs for specing into any M4 that isn't ID? Nevermind the mastery requirements. Besides the fact, how do you spam a M4... At best it's 1min cd. Or did you mean having a bunch of KotBS using it? Sorry if misunderstood.

I agree with the SM pull though. Any pull that ignores immunities is OP. But it's a M4 that requires you to murder your spec to gain(regardless of how you run your SM, grabbing the M4, WW[if you're up there you might as well], KD, and absorp bubble leaves you with 7pts RR40. Thats before any defensive tactics), and it's not ID. but yes, it is quite powerful. I just don't see it as game breaking. 4 players pulled w/i 30ft on 1min cd(if you have a AM morale pumping you) isn't going to shatter any defenses that a well timed Z WoI, engi pull, choppa pull or magus pull wouldn't. Hell, with only a 30ft range and no snare component, arguably SM AoE punt would have a more lasting effect on a defensive line.

Btw, please explain if you're seeing something I'm not. Calling it OP doesn't really help, how will it be used that could break the game? present some situations it could be game breaking, and I'm sure the dev's will adjust...

Last point, I remember awhile back discussion about having some Morales on longer CD timers than others, is this still being thought of? As increasing CD would be the best way to balance something that is powerful, but you don't want used on CD in a morale pump group.
1. While sm even has a gap closer i suggest you play poor bo (lets not mention both high elf mdps have gap closers which also need to be taken into effect of sms pounce. (with WL having AND THEN SOME).

2. KOTBS has to spec into solar flare correct, but you also have everything else that knight provides to the wb while bg will be speccing into a unused tree to remain useless except to bring a single morale to a specific situation (funnels) that knights has always had and then some.

3.it's easy to tell you main order and there's nothing wrong with that except im trying to look at this as a balance issue not a (nerf their side buff my side bias) issue. You are well aware what GTTC does to order and how much it is hated by order wbs getting sucked in but once again, this is used on the squishiest mdps the game has.
Ok now imagine that same pull but on a deftard tank class synergized with that op knight utility and the omgalol bomb burst order has been known to put out since live. Engie/magus pull can be defended against, SM pull will be absolute.

4. Increased cooldown wouldnt change much as morales are the battle enders of the game and fooling with CDs would just be a waste of time
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Dabbart
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#29 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:10 pm

I had a 40\60 BO on this server. AoE snare helps them, a LOT. And yes, I know the duration got nerfed, but it got a build timer increaser to trade off. But I'd trade a shitty gap closer for the AoE snare, or morale pump of BO any day. How about increased crit damage? CD increaser? Every class has things others don't. Doesn't make them broken.
Note: current SM pounce is quite OP. I don't see how a 45ft no snare pounce is worth complaining about though...

I main Order now. I mained destro on this server for over a year though... And I have toons on both sides. I've deleted a dozen RR40+ toons. The only classes I haven't played up to 40/40+ is slayer, engi, mara, chosen, and DoK. I was one of the original dirty xrealmers... And also, I was in lrn2play on order(The Damned on Destro) long before you stole our name... Jk BTW...

What does BG have to do with the knight morale being "spammed" though? Also that's not a useless tree... Yea, I played BG as well. Calling heal debuff, anti detaunt, 30% disrupt, auto parry, and self heal unused is just wrong. It might not be used in your wb meta, but it isn't unused, and it isn't useless. Also, WB isn't the only Meta.

BG viability in a WB is another issue entirely. That shouldn't be balanced around morales, IMO. But again, BGs have AoE wounds debuff, AoE snare, and crit increase. They aren't exactly WHs...

And again, the SM could pull 4 players a max of 30ft, and its channeled and M4. Also, what RR would you have to be to actually get that M4 and be considered deftard? RR70 by my math and you still miss out on a bunch of defensive abilities. I fail to see how that breaks anything. Saying you can pull into a Bomb means nothing, as that can already happen. Magus base pull range is 75ft. 2.5x the proposed SM pull range. 30ft pull aint ****. Question, would you be so opposed to it if it respected immunities? (note: i still don't like this proposed Morale, but lets try to be reasonable as we break things down and elucidate as to why)
Edit: I **** up, the Damage portion of this morale is proposed at 30ft, the pull is proposed at 45ft if you "get lucky", which I'm unsure of the meaning. That is substantial. 45ft is much more powerful than 30, as you can stand outside of AoE bomb damage and still get the pull.

And before you go off on how you care about balance and I don't, I'm the one that asked for AM M1 to be balanced, while I was maining a AM. I proposed for WP backline healing survival to get weakened(as I played a wp), I've never asked(seriously) for my classes to be buffed cause I want ez wins. I get it, most players refuse to ever state that their class has anything OP and needs a rebalancing. But, have you? Do you believe every class you play or on Destro is either balanced or weak and needs a buff? Cause all I read from you(this thread note, I haven't been active the last 6months) is that Order is too powerful, and Destro needs mawr goodies....

Again though, offer instances where these proposed changes can\will be broken. Give examples. Run some numbers. Offer some alternatives.

Edit: words and grammar.

WeGotThis
Posts: 57

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#30 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:24 am

New SM M4 Shadow Blades

If you feel the need of give Order an AoE Pull compared to chopper,
then it may be not the best idea to put it as a Moral 4...

I would never go for it... But i never play Warband
For SM Tanks joining Wardbands and sitting half of their RoR life infront of a Keep/Fort Funnel,
the new M4 might be a cool thing ;)

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