Not having much hope on this proposal but anyway.... to continue the discussion around cc (started with previously proposal regarding 1.4.7 CC changes) and resolute defense this discussion aim is to talk about the impact of snare and in partiuar some snares in the game.
What i am trying to look at is considering any form of snare by his aim as skill (ex: if something is primary or an accessory
effect) and the type of skill and how much aoe make it better than st one + difference at values.
CRITERIA/LOGIC behind snare balance
1-is snare the aim of the skill (aka i want snare you so i use this skill)
EX: any skill which "only" snare
2-snare is a secondary effect to make work the first one( or to better say the effect would work even with out the snare component but is not assured it will optimaly do so, so snare is added to make the primary effect with out flaw or to justify why is so hard get it as whole skill and so the rpimary eff
EX: SW/Squig self punt+ snare / IB punt +snare
3-if the skill is morales or not (which mean different balance than normal snares)
EX: SM moral 2
4-Is the skill which snare aoe or ST?
EX: pick any...
5-when balancing snare we need to work on multiplers of 5 for eff duration and CD because 5 sec is the CD of st/group cleanse and so snares need to be balanced with those timers since snares have no core immunity.
GENERAL ISSUES
I think that no form of balance can avoid the points bellow based on the points above (and for what it think most aoe snares in
game dont follow these or any kind of balance criteria)
A)- There must be some form of balance between aoe/st and tank/dd snares (it is getting break on different levels)
B)- if the snare is a secondary effect granted to make the main effect of the skill working with out flaw then the snare component should NOT have the same duration as a full pure snare of the same kind otherwise the skill is both a pure snare + another full effect which make the skill a 2 skill in one -->which is GCD economy and so the skill should as consequence have a really high CD if the primary effect alredy require a high CD.
C)-if the skill being moral mean the snare have an easier application ( it's undefitable) and undefeatable CC with no immunity
is still a thing.
Summary
to summary my point my attention is specifically aimed to snares which break those foundamental criterias in these areas:
-secodary effect snare ( duration should be worst than full snare flagged as pure of same kind)
-a specific moral snare ( due internal balance of the skill not being fine + being aoe)
-way too spammable snare due not have duration, CD .or both not well balanced
ISSUES
PURE AOE SNARES
BO/KOBS/BG/IB snares- these snares present a lot of differantiations between each other and 1 additionsal problem to those
wrote above: kobs/bg aoe snare are "cone" which are worst than a "360 degree" snares such IB/BO
Here we have different problem x snare, i anticipate that IB/KOBS aoe snare fully respec the generall idea behind some kind of
balance between cd and target hit and in case of kobs there is a form of compensation for the snare being cone and not 360
degree. This lead me to belive BO was Op pre patch 22/09 out of any balance and BG is still underperforming. The guideline to what i will adeherith is based upon kobs/ib snare, so that for every 3 ppl snared you need to have the skill CD increase by 5 sec (with 5 sec base CD). When a skill is cone his CD will be reduced by 5 sec. Those 2 rules apply to kobs and IB fully currently.
A) CONE SNARES
-are less effective/more situationl than 360 degree as you have more chance to miss the target/s due positioning(and also height) and movement they should be more spamable offering overall less ppl hit byt the snare and so be less effective vs mltiple ppl.; the starting point is the KOBS cone snare which snare 3 ppl every 5 sec,for 10 sec; the max cap of an aoe snare can be 9 so for snare 9 ppl kobs take 15 sec and snare them for 10 sec: this is a bit less CD than IB and after last patch BO. This is fine due the cone nature due that is required to balance the badder aoe with a 5 sec CD reduction so instead 10 sec duration 20 cd we have 10 sec duration 15 of kd: we then divide numebr of ppl and cd to scale it as we desire so either:
3ppl, 10 sec. 5 cd
6ppl, 10 sec, 10 CD
9ppl, 10 sec, 15 cd
(this is the snare which offer less problem, the target cap is low as the cd and the scale is perfectly fine with IB/BO one less
5 sec of compensation for being a cone snare instead a 360 degree.
-BG one on contraire is balanced regarding a higer CD but is still cone (this is bad as it makes basically the worst snare
in game both cone and very long CD definetly something not to nerf but to rebalance.The BG snares being crossmirrored with the
KOBS one (both are cone) should behaviour the same way( and not like IB one); because as it stand now it offer differents flaws: first is cone , second it have have an high CD (and a high CD is badder than get a duration reduction like BO) and it's the only relatevly low CD aoe cc BG have since the aoe punt is a moral, so every 60 seconds....
As x wrote above i consider kobs snare balanced ( also need to read further) as "cone" aoe snare while BG one is
underperforming, so kobs should not be touched in this regard, while bg may recive a buff or make it equal to kobs one; BG is
something definetly not to nerf here in this thread as his snared dosent require any nerf as it breakes no rule or common
balance/logic if not it should be made equal to kobs one as that one offer the best solution for the synergy with the other bg
cc which is the aoe moral punt. Atm BG snare is 9ppl, 10 sec , 20 cd. This should probably be changed to -5 CD (15 cd)
B) 360 DEGREE SNARE
-starting from the IB a 50% update time is ok if the snare have a 360 degree; this also involve with a long CD imply some
crucial choice on when use the same which is fine since the same have the efficency (easy to use as is 360 degree) to put it at
use. You rememebr when we talked about kOBS eh now is time to compare those 2: kobs take 15 sec to snare 9 ppl while IB take 20 sec of CD, so they are balanced due difference in CD being requested due teh efficency of 360 degree one. The 20 sec one involve some critical choice regarding the crucial time of when apply the snare plus is balanced as general rule due have 2 x efficency of choppa/slayer one. (logic of tank cc need to be better than dd ones).
Spoiler:
KOBS-> 3ppl snare , 10 sec duration, 5 sec CD (as currently implemented)= 9 ppl snared for 10 over 15 sec
BG -> 6/9 ppl snared, 10 sec duration, 10/15 sec CD ( basically as KOBS but 2 or3x target cap/CD)= 9 ppl snared over 15 sec
IB--> 9 ppl snare, 10 sec duration, 20 sec CD (as currently implemented)=9 ppl snared for 10 over 20 sec
BO--> 9 ppl snare, 5 sec duration, 10 sec CD (as starting point)= 9ppl snared for 10 over 20 sec
SECONDARY EFFECT SNARES
the skills presented bellow of course break the criteria/logic of the balance done "on the aim of the effects"; in the cases
bellow the snare is a secondary eff and not a primary eff but is currently implmented as the skill was aimed to snare.
-sw/squig self punt+ snare--> the snare component is too long 10 sec is a value for a pure snare eff, it should be 5 sec since the aim is an escape tool and not a CC tool ( as i stated above the escape tool must be an escape tool so anti snare cant make the skill fail imo, otherwise you cant balance the snare secondary eff since the primary aim is use this as an escape tool (basically kill the always present extremis .....kill the no snare = no escape tool and make it always escape tool + nerf snare duration but of course snare will be subject to immunity as normal...way more logical....imo), since the snare is only
funtional to that and just that. If you wanna use it as a full snare then it will be as a dps aoe one of 5 sec (in fact balanced
as choppa/slayer one both in cd and duration) and not as a tank one for 10 sec all in respect as above criterias/logic... So if it's used as an escape tool he gona work as a secodary eff which is ok. if they want use it as a DD snare ( involving flexibility and no skill economy due 60 sec CD) the value will be alredy balanced for aoe DD snares which is 5 sec,20 CD; as for the justification of the CD: wh/we escape tool is a 30 sec CD and is melee class (which mean more risk) imo make sense that the cd of an escape tool of a ranged class will be higer (les risk); this mean that the 60 cd is not aimed to balance also the 10 sec snare but is aimed to balanced the escape tool only. Since 30 sec for melee classes and 60 sec for ranged one resemble some kind of balance should be fine and even if that isn't correct it have nothing to do with this thread.
-IB punt+snare (rune ached axe + tactic)--> the snare component is actually to high, aoe punt became in ror one OF The best tool both offensivly and defensivly compared to live where an aoe punt just moved you around, here also afetr the interrupt it prevent you from cast while flying. The skill CD is 10 sec this mean than the IB can punt 9 ppl every 10 sec also snaring them for 10 sec (this is not a secodnary effect this is skill economy which need to be burden with additonal CD in case if it would be left this way) and repeat this another 10 sec later. Per the considerations above if we want fix this as a secondary eff and due how the primary effect work then the skill should if punt (and only if succesfully punt due being an accessory effect ) at that point snare you for 5 sec ( cuz is not a full pure snares)
This is high required considering BO/SM punt offer the same for overall a badder punt in the end. Since it gona consider this as
a secondary effect and not skill economy then the secondary effect is made to make it work better in comparison and prolonged
the distance of the ppl you punt. This cant regardless became also a full pure snare per above logic + the class can alredy
provide a full snare no conditinoal (no specific weapon requried also ).
MORALES SNARES
this an isolate case but is worth to be looked into. This refer mostly to the SM aoe snare moral 2.
This require a different approach, we need not only to apply the initial consideration but also further criteria.
This aoe snare break again as the BO one several logic tough they cannot be grasp if do not approac at the moral with a pro and
contr logic which imo should be used upon all morales. I wanna talk about first of the snare eff since this is the selling point of the moral (+ gap closed). This is a moral aoe snare which imply as we done regarding snare in general to be compared with other cc in game of the same kind, if we have a look at the other 2 moral (m3 in this case) we see that both kobs/BO moral 3 offer a cc (root and silence). The CC duration is not linked imo to the moral slot becuase that is what dmg assigned to skill doing (scale the higer is the moral and get reduced if the moral is doing aoe dmg --> morales 3 base dmg is 1800 + STeffect or 1200 if aoe effect; I can only move on this comparison because every moral have 1 min CD but it is justify this with moral dmg being actually
undefendable so my only 2 ways to look at this is either considering other crow controll morales and other aoe snare in game
BO duration M3 is 5 sec
KOBS duration M3 is 10 sec
the discrimination betwenn these 2 form of cc and the SM snare is that those morales offer a core immunity and SM one dosen't,
Snare have no immunity so whatever the M3 are balanced, the snare component (of a less rank morale) cant have an higer duration than those two moral 3 cc.The dmg (whataver the right ammount is) which any moral 2 would have is replaced with a gap closer (most likely 600 dmg), the high cd is balanced with the skill being undefeandable ( as for all other morales)
But there is actually nothing which balance the absence of no immunity and the aoe component here
Let's make a comparison of this moral 2 pro/contr and which contr is trade for what pro + lets divide pro and contr into general for all morales and specific point regarding this one
contr / pro
60 sec CD-----------------> undefeatable
dmg scaled down-----------> aoe
//////-----------> no immunity snare
no dmg-------------> gap closer instead
Generally all morales have the firsts 2 points, while this morale trade the gap closer for the dmg component, but while all
normal snare can be cleanse a moral one cant ....
All snare in game both morales and not morales can be "removed" (not cleased) by tank/melee dedicated tools and casters m2 but the discirmination is done by healers cleanse here (in fact)....Morales cannot be cleanse this is extremly important in balance the abbundace of snare in game and which leave an empty contr space (which i added below). So there must be something to contr the base 10 sec aoe snare effect which imo is apply a lower (also called soft ..read further) value instead
60 sec CD---------------------> undefeatable
dmg scale scale down ---------> aoe
//////-----------> no immunity snare
no dmg-------------> gap closer instead
soft value--------> no cleanse
So SM M2 should be-> no dmg, gap closer, aoe snare 5 sec duration, undefitable, 60 sec CD.
Per what wrote above, in normal skill we also have a dmg component other than the snare (primary effect ) here is replaced with gap closer so in this case due being a moral the M2 break another and new logic ad hoc due being a moral cc; normal skill which dmg + snare when get defended get see def both -> the eff and -> the dmg which mean the defense matter x2 his value, which mean a moral cc also is 2x stronger (since the dmg is scaled due moral being aoe or not and due the slot the cc component have no balancing factor). It feel there is enough proof on this logic to make this worth a discussion. This i supported by the fact that additionally the gap closer is not only used to move better youserlf but also to position/land better the snare radious. This escalating efficency is hard to justify with a 10 sec snare eff when in game there is a generall snare problem.
ADDITIONAL ISSUE: OVERLAPPING SNARE AND JUGGERNAUT
OVERLAPPING MULTIPLE ST SNARES
One of the reason why the ppl feel a general problem when it cames to snare is the overlapping nature
of the eff in oRvRvr ( and i remark in oRvR) especially in chase situations and hence the need of rd. The problem here is allow a change to escape to the zerg or a force numerically too high than you which make the combat unfair.
Tank juggernaut cleanse you only from the eff but they do not prvent new eff to be used upon you , NOW change this may feel
leading to OP change (especially for melee train) but is not in that way really.
When a skill is used it need to have a justification or at least something that make it worth use it. Use juggernaut for cleanse snare is most of time a bad option unless you are either alredy immune to root or you have some kind of immunity applied (such rd or BO/SM one) this is due the efficency of the skill which is very limited so juggernaut as currently implemented do not reach the base aim is designed for or rahter is design present flaw.
The main comparison with melee anti snare /root show that there must be some x time after you remove the snare so that that skill was actually not wasted. This cant happen with root (as there is core immunity) but it cant happen for snare. This is because the original game didnt have no immunity. This show all his flaw when ppl is basically burring you udner snares and the more ppl the more snares get refreshed (both due incoirrect CD values on st ranged snare + due the overlapping nature).
TO MAKE JUGGERNAUT WORTH:
Here we need good sense but also a good way to remove the fact that rd is mandatory. Again this sorta turn out about tank/dd
tools. 10 vs 5 sec. While this time the dd have the hard value 10 sec and tank have none. By reverting this the snare (tank 10 and melee 5) into anti snare by math melee should have 10 sec immunity and tank 5 sec immunity.
But this lead me to think that since melee can snare for 5 sec a 5 sec immunity added to juggernaut is too much because in those exat 5 sec you have a way to reach the snared target from a melee and then apply the tank snare which in chasing situation etc is too good. Or to better say give juggernaut a 5 sec immunity would fit too well in a melee train and it will give also a lot more time in rvr than what you suppose to have.
Still a value between 1-4 is the right direction to me to soft the problem of tank and snare in rvr.
First thing first we must consider that there must be an interval of time( mnimun requrie) so that the skill will allow to use at least anothger effect after use juggernaut save you from root/snares.
Imo the skill should work at least till the GCD (so at least you can use 1 skill after juggernatu). This mean 1 gcd of
juggernaut and possible another1 GCD of 1 skill (aka 2 seconds).
So this is the value where the juggernaut should be balanced imo around; min of 2 sec with a max of 3 sec due abbundace of snare (or better say to protect you from more ppl overlapping their snare on you).
So yes i belive to solve the rd problem juggernaut should also confer a 2-3 sec immunity (and this is a max value alredy). This
wold be a closure rule to soft the abbundance of snares in game.
DISCLAIMER
if you had red all you should had noticed that most of values for aoe snares when it cames to balance the factor either as
"secondary effect" or the simply "aoe factor" are resolved by assign 5 sec duration to the snare. Sometimes in fact i speak about a soft value; this have a plenty easy explaination and if i had till now justify the WHY the changes I would like to talk about why
this specific duration . The core st snare for tank is 10 sec and the st core snare for melee is 5 sec....there are so 2 snares values in game for all melee classes. There is just a difference of 5 sec but why is that way?
I suppose there the easy pick is related to the CORE difference between tanks and melee; tanks are those who have to provide CC mostly, melee need snare but all dd are not those you need to provide them primary, they provide filler CC instead.
st tank snare is 10 sec
st melee snare is 5 sec
Aoe tank snares is 10 sec mostly as currently implemented (IB/BG/Bo)
aoe snare choppa/slayer is 5 sec
This may show a sign of a kind of balance between a "soft" value and a "hard" value
there is actually 2 kind of snares to NOT create an abbundance of snares, it was found an hard value which was give of course to
tanks and another one which was given to melee; so anytime you need to reduce the duration to balance it with another "pro" of the skill such the aoe/secondary effect factor you simply drop the duration to/by 5 sec or/and then apply another contr or
generally an higher CD..
The school case is the IB aoe snare which is imo perfectly balanced in game. When the CD go up is easy to balance the duration
so if you start from an alredy 5 sec duration snare on a skill with multiple effects and you need to further balance it you dont
reduces the duration but you instead increase the CD (exemple as BO was changed).
Cleanse here play also a big role as if a snare is subject to be cleansed then it matter few what is the difference in duration
but more the difference in CD, in this case morales snare cannot be cleanse at all from healers in general and this is another
factor which imply that any moral snares should have not the form of an hard snare but the form of a soft one. So for istance
any aoe snare which is morales should be regardless other kind of effect be thinked by default with a set duration of 5 sec and
not more.This is also aggravate by the chance of lesser error the snare provide in this specific case. Not only snare someone
confer no immunity which mean there is no kind of critical choice involved (aka cc someone give him immunty if you srew the
moment you may end to give also free immunity), yes you will still regardless waste the moral but this is the same for every
skill in game so this moral and all aoe snares present half the risk while all other cc morale present 2x the risk vs reward -
>>REWARD vs RISK to have skill in cd + RISK of free immunity.
(Hence another reason why im set on consider enough proofs that any moral aoe snare should be max 5 sec per default).
This soft value is 5, generally when it became 10 it became an hard snare which it require some justification even more if the
skill is spamable, even more if the skill is undefeatable etc etc etc. This is why in most of cases when we speak of aoe or
secondary effect 5 or less sec is regardless an optimal solution.
I wanna point out that this change is not aim to change the dinamic of snare vs cleanse and snare vs core classes immunity; this is a change to work mostly outside these cases when such tools are in cd or not avaiable/viable which is where
the need of RD and such surf in game. This is a general change aimed to make the presence on snares when
dedicated anti-snares tools are in cd or not avaiable more mercyfull.
I feel my vision is out of bias since i propose some nerf equally on both side, most are adjustment to not primary snare or
overperforming snare in game and underperforming as BG one. (this was wrote before 22/09 patch so i was also for nerf bo snare)
OTHER SNARE IN GAME (which are balanced due this logic)
choppa/slayer aoe snare: 5 sec duration 20 sec CD --> 10 sec of tank value became soft value of 5 due be put on dd).
wh/we ST snares: in curreny implemantation are 5 sec, no CD e but is positional.
OTHER SNARES IN GAME (wchih break these rules : simple case)
sw/squig st snare: is 10 sec with 15 of CD, it should be either be 5 sec with 10 CD or 10 eff with 20 CD: as all other dd in
game or multiplied by x2 in that values and not 10 as a tank. when we talk about rpds and snare issue especially in rvr this is
THE reference to blame are:
->aoe snare (tanks)
->st ranged snares (rdd)
OTHER SNARES IN GAME (which break these rules: cases that need to be look per se)
wl(pet): 10 sec, 5 CD (like tank snare )
squig(pet): 10 sec, 5 sec (again like tank snare)
BW:channeling + 9 sec snare , 11 cd( tested in game personally; 4 tick each one snare for 3 sec refreshing the previously, last
tick when channelign end resnare for 3 which mean 6 sec fo channeling snared +3 of last tick is a 9 sec snare 11 sec fo CD)
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
SUMMARY post changes
Pure ST snares
all tanks st: 10 sec , 5 CD
WE/WH: 5 sec, no CD ( but positional)
dok/wp: 6 sec, 10 CD (conditional)
sorc: 5 sec, 10CD +2 of cast time (conditional)
Squig/sw: either 5 sec/ 10 cd or 10 sec duration /20 CD (make more sense the second option melee need to apply snare more often than rdps to be in range and it also soft the problem of overlapping snare on 1 target in oRVR)
pure aoe snares
KOBS-> 3ppl snare , 10 sec duration, 5 sec CD (as currently implemented)
BG -> 6/9 ppl snare, 10 sec duration, 10/15 sec CD (CD compensation for being cone and choice between values imo target cap 6)
IB--> 9 ppl snare, 10 sec duration, 20 sec CD (as currently implemented)
BO--> 9 ppl snare, 10 sec duration, 15 sec of CD or/or 9 ppl hit, 5 sec duration, 10 sec of KD *
choppa---->9 ppl 5 sec, 20 CD
slayer--->9 ppl 5 sec, 20 CD
secondary eff snares
SW/squig -> escape + 5 sec aoe snare, 60 CD
IB -> aoe punt + 5 second aoe snare, 10 CD
Morale snares
SM -> gap closer + 5 sec aoe snare
SUMMARY (other left out the proposal that would requrie attention)
wl(pet): 10 sec, 5 CD --> should probably became 5 sec, 10 cd
squig(pet): 9 sec, 5 CD--> should probably became 5 sec, 10 cd
BW: 9 sec 11 CD--> should probably remove final ticks snare refresh to leave it a 6 sec snare, 11 CD as this would "also" make it more balanced with sorc one since both have 11 sec of "true" CD
*i wanna point out that no perfect value can be found for BO snare and it should require in game test more than other snares in
game for sure these values are a good starting point which are imo the base requirement for have a balanced snare presence in game, + juggernaut adjustament due st snare focus spam. At last i also left out morales st snares becuase there is alredy lot to talk about.
