In short, SM is a tank that relies heavilly on its dmg to be usefull in grp. Thay deal a combination of physical and spirit dmg. A key aspect was to be able to debuff the spirit part of its own dmg. Since WoH and HB no longer stack this key ingredient to SM play, and the core of SM, is diminished. I know this has been a hot topic of discussion and want with this proposal shine some new light on the issue. So plz read through my arguments. Disclaimer, the nerf to trippelstacking debuffs (kotbs+sm) was obviously needed and I fully support.
Spoiler:
A short background. At first I was sad when the nerf hit. But decided to try it out and draw a fair conclusion after testing. I have a bit of experience when it comes to game balance and I want to make arguments from the perspective of the game as a whole, and try not to compare classes directly.
(There is a fair amount of reading and I have therefore highlighted the bullet point on top of each argument)
Balancing for skills.
Spoiler:
This is a concept in game developement that most might be familiar with, without even knowing. It can be broken down like this: You give a class/hero/wep a easy to use high performing abilitie that new or newb player can use to have fun and feel strong but that can be counterd and better players know how to counter or play against. The importans of having these kind of seemingly imbalances in the game is really important and crusial to make a game fun for every one and keep ppl playing. The reasoning is as follows: Giving SM good spirit dmg gives new players a way to compete while pro players know how to counter. --> This gives order more tanks (kinda needed), less players get frustrated and gives up on tank and/or order (as a realm) and this benefits the whole game commuity while not breaking the high skill games or the orvr wb play. If you are intrested in a more in detail description of balancing for skills, Extra Credits have an exelent video describing the concept here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w
Spoiler:
This is what happens in games all the time and should be taken into concideration before deciding to nerf something.
Description: If a class (A) is seemingly performing slightly better in one aspect of the game, that class gets played alot ---> leading to many ppl playing it ---> other faction facing alot of that class and get a illusion that that class must be too good.
This should not lead to a nerf of said class (see Balancing for skills). Normaly this solves by something on other faction becoming more popular to counter (A) and first faction have to figure out new counter to counter that (and so the meta switches).
Description: If a class (A) is seemingly performing slightly better in one aspect of the game, that class gets played alot ---> leading to many ppl playing it ---> other faction facing alot of that class and get a illusion that that class must be too good.
This should not lead to a nerf of said class (see Balancing for skills). Normaly this solves by something on other faction becoming more popular to counter (A) and first faction have to figure out new counter to counter that (and so the meta switches).
Spoiler:
SM uses both physical and spirit dmg to a greater extent then any other class in the game. The problem with this is it relies on two different debuffs (AF and Spirit) to maximize its dmg potential fully. Most classes that uses magic dmg as their main sorce of dmg have high delving spells (like bolt and stacking dots) in combination with singel debuff to output dmg. While SM abilities delvs dmg more in line with other melee focused tanks. This becomes a liability when the piercing from ws and the high values of af debuffs cant be utiliest by most SM dmg abilities. (see below for calculation examples)
Here follows some calculations and examples to show exactly how effective the double and single spirit debuff is.
Spoiler:
Resist follows a linear progression from 0 to 673 which gives 0 to 40% dmg reduction. This is equivalent to 1 resist = 0,059435 dmg decrease. After which it falls off steaply.
Resist buffs from different sources:
Kotbs/Chosen: 0 glory/discord = 236 resist, 7=302,9=321, 11=340, 13=359, 15=378
AM/Shaman: 258ish
RM/Zealot: 200-250 depending on specc.
Normal equipments:
Dom/conq belt = 74-83
Genesis set: 289
Beastlord: 195-322
Worldbreaker set: 371ish
INF items, red-eye, subj: Higher ressist then genesis set.
Normal combinations:
inf,anni,ruin + worldbreaker band = 550-590 (gives 33-35% reduction)
full Beastlord + worldbreaker = 650-770 (38-42%)
part Beastlord + genesis = 460 - 580 (27-35%)
Full domi/conq + genesis = 370-390 (22-23%)
With a standard T4 eq + resist buff it is possible to reach over 1k resist. With the "BIS" eq the resist takes a dive. This is good game design, benefits vs disadvantage of sets. But what we can see is the relative ease in wich a char can go enough over the soft cap to totally ignore an singel resistdebuff.
SM resist debuffs:
WoH: 0 Hoeth = 236 resist decrease, 9=321, 13=359
HB: 0 Hoeth = 157 resist decrease, 9=214, 13=239
Combined: 0 Hoeth = 393 resist decrease, 9=535, 13=598
What we can see here is that with only WoH as a debuff (and a normal spec of 9 in Hoeth) the debuff is totally offset by resist buff from chosen and almost by shaman. And slotting worlbreaker jewel still gives softcap resists after debuff. Thus very effectivly counter most dmg a SM can put out.
Compair to AF debuffs:
Armor works a bit different, its fully linear till hardcapp. Armor physical dmg reducion is: 1armor = 0,0227 reduction. AF capps out WAY higher then resist does but we have to take into acount that WS also decrease physical dmg reduction from armor. And most dmg classes has abilities to further bypass armor, like Sundering Chop or Murderous Wrath (SM doesnt have any such ability). Further, most classes have no way to reach high armor values near cap. There is no similiar stat for SM to benefit from when using spirit dmg.
This gives valus like: (to have some thing to relate to)
3906 armor = 88,7 physical dmg reduction
3306 armor = 75,1
2629 armor = 59,8
1953 armor = 44,4
1202 armor = 27,3
Armor Debuffs:
IB/BG: ~1152 armor debuff, gives 26% dmg increase
IB/BG + Demolishing strike = 2208 armor debuff, gives 50% dmg increase
WL/Mara ~ 1440 armor debuff, gives 33% dmg increase
WL/Mara + DS = 2496 armor debuff, gives 57% dmg increase.
Conclusion from looking at armor debuffs and spirit debuffs:
First we can se that the available armor buffs (most ~600, pots etc) only counters half of most used armor debuffs. While current spirit debuff is completely or almost completely negated by resist buffs.
Second, WoH = 321 resist debuff = 19 % dmg increase if targets resist is lower then 673, and way less if target have higher resist, down to about 5% if target has 1000+ resist. And only helps some of SMs dmg abilities. WoH + HB = ~535 resist debuff = 32% if targets resist is lower then 673, and less if target have higher. Stacking brings SM spirit dmg in line with other excisting debuffs %. Taking into account low armor classes, WS and further bypass abilities for armor only sements the fact that dubble spirit debuff is not over peforming but rather on par or lower then other debuffs for physical dmg. And (again) its only part of SMs dmg that is effected by the double debuff.
Whith these numbers I hope to show that singel debuff for a SM is very weak and double debuff is more in line with other game mechanics. And the ease in which you can overcap resist to neglect any debuff, even double. Something you cant easily do with armor.
.Note that when I write that armor debuffs gives dmg increase I mean that the physical dmg reduction from armor is lowered by X%. It is ofc not the final dmg that is increased by X% because of other factors like toughness etc. Same is to be said for resist. The numbers are however comparable at this point.
Resist buffs from different sources:
Kotbs/Chosen: 0 glory/discord = 236 resist, 7=302,9=321, 11=340, 13=359, 15=378
AM/Shaman: 258ish
RM/Zealot: 200-250 depending on specc.
Normal equipments:
Dom/conq belt = 74-83
Genesis set: 289
Beastlord: 195-322
Worldbreaker set: 371ish
INF items, red-eye, subj: Higher ressist then genesis set.
Normal combinations:
inf,anni,ruin + worldbreaker band = 550-590 (gives 33-35% reduction)
full Beastlord + worldbreaker = 650-770 (38-42%)
part Beastlord + genesis = 460 - 580 (27-35%)
Full domi/conq + genesis = 370-390 (22-23%)
With a standard T4 eq + resist buff it is possible to reach over 1k resist. With the "BIS" eq the resist takes a dive. This is good game design, benefits vs disadvantage of sets. But what we can see is the relative ease in wich a char can go enough over the soft cap to totally ignore an singel resistdebuff.
SM resist debuffs:
WoH: 0 Hoeth = 236 resist decrease, 9=321, 13=359
HB: 0 Hoeth = 157 resist decrease, 9=214, 13=239
Combined: 0 Hoeth = 393 resist decrease, 9=535, 13=598
What we can see here is that with only WoH as a debuff (and a normal spec of 9 in Hoeth) the debuff is totally offset by resist buff from chosen and almost by shaman. And slotting worlbreaker jewel still gives softcap resists after debuff. Thus very effectivly counter most dmg a SM can put out.
Compair to AF debuffs:
Armor works a bit different, its fully linear till hardcapp. Armor physical dmg reducion is: 1armor = 0,0227 reduction. AF capps out WAY higher then resist does but we have to take into acount that WS also decrease physical dmg reduction from armor. And most dmg classes has abilities to further bypass armor, like Sundering Chop or Murderous Wrath (SM doesnt have any such ability). Further, most classes have no way to reach high armor values near cap. There is no similiar stat for SM to benefit from when using spirit dmg.
This gives valus like: (to have some thing to relate to)
3906 armor = 88,7 physical dmg reduction
3306 armor = 75,1
2629 armor = 59,8
1953 armor = 44,4
1202 armor = 27,3
Armor Debuffs:
IB/BG: ~1152 armor debuff, gives 26% dmg increase
IB/BG + Demolishing strike = 2208 armor debuff, gives 50% dmg increase
WL/Mara ~ 1440 armor debuff, gives 33% dmg increase
WL/Mara + DS = 2496 armor debuff, gives 57% dmg increase.
Conclusion from looking at armor debuffs and spirit debuffs:
First we can se that the available armor buffs (most ~600, pots etc) only counters half of most used armor debuffs. While current spirit debuff is completely or almost completely negated by resist buffs.
Second, WoH = 321 resist debuff = 19 % dmg increase if targets resist is lower then 673, and way less if target have higher resist, down to about 5% if target has 1000+ resist. And only helps some of SMs dmg abilities. WoH + HB = ~535 resist debuff = 32% if targets resist is lower then 673, and less if target have higher. Stacking brings SM spirit dmg in line with other excisting debuffs %. Taking into account low armor classes, WS and further bypass abilities for armor only sements the fact that dubble spirit debuff is not over peforming but rather on par or lower then other debuffs for physical dmg. And (again) its only part of SMs dmg that is effected by the double debuff.
Whith these numbers I hope to show that singel debuff for a SM is very weak and double debuff is more in line with other game mechanics. And the ease in which you can overcap resist to neglect any debuff, even double. Something you cant easily do with armor.
.Note that when I write that armor debuffs gives dmg increase I mean that the physical dmg reduction from armor is lowered by X%. It is ofc not the final dmg that is increased by X% because of other factors like toughness etc. Same is to be said for resist. The numbers are however comparable at this point.
Here follows more subjective arguments and should be taken as such.
Spoiler:
SMs "only" utility is dmg. A part from random stat steal and WW, SM brings nothing to the grp except dmg. It is the only reason to invite a SM to the grp and the reason I like playing one. Some like to play utilitie tanks and some like tanktank and some like dmg tanks. Now there is no longer a clear viable dmg option on order side.
Order as a realm is lacking a bit in its composition. There is a heavy focus on dps, range and melee, and to few tanks and healers. When deciding to nerf tanks for order it has big effects on the general composition of order. Players gets bored of playing tanks --> less tanks --> composition of order gets more scewerd and the ability to effectivly play the game (orvr and scs) is diminshed --> more players on order gets frustrated and switch/quits. If on the other hand tanks for order performs good the opposite happens and more players enjoy the game. While deciding to give a specific class a boost (or nerf) the result for the realm as a whole should be concidered.
After playing a while and testing with the new none stacking spirit debuffs I conclude that it has made SM a way lackluster tank and not as fun or good tank to play. imho.
To quick also tuch on changing HB into something else. This is most likely not gona be a valid solution if SM doesnt get more dmg from something else also. It has been and I would like to see it again as a good dps tank. Order has good hybrid in IB and good utility from Kotbs but lacks a dmg dealer tank.
Order as a realm is lacking a bit in its composition. There is a heavy focus on dps, range and melee, and to few tanks and healers. When deciding to nerf tanks for order it has big effects on the general composition of order. Players gets bored of playing tanks --> less tanks --> composition of order gets more scewerd and the ability to effectivly play the game (orvr and scs) is diminshed --> more players on order gets frustrated and switch/quits. If on the other hand tanks for order performs good the opposite happens and more players enjoy the game. While deciding to give a specific class a boost (or nerf) the result for the realm as a whole should be concidered.
After playing a while and testing with the new none stacking spirit debuffs I conclude that it has made SM a way lackluster tank and not as fun or good tank to play. imho.
To quick also tuch on changing HB into something else. This is most likely not gona be a valid solution if SM doesnt get more dmg from something else also. It has been and I would like to see it again as a good dps tank. Order has good hybrid in IB and good utility from Kotbs but lacks a dmg dealer tank.
SMs ability Wrath of Hoeth spirit debuff stacks with Heaven's Blade spirit debuff but only on main target (Either by not proccing of aoe abilities or only proccing on main target)
Thanks for great job on bringing a wonderful game back to us and in a better way then it was on live! Much love! <3
