[Implementation Feedback] Patch Sept 18 2018

[Ummagumma]

I would like to comment on the Envenomed Blade/Fervor being cleansable change. This will be more from a Witch Elf point of view, but as Witch Hunters are mirrors, this will apply to them as well.

The we and wh are classes that have a lot of buffs and situational attacks to the point that they lack attacks that can fit into a good rotation like many classes. As such they rely on their spammable attacks more than other classes. (in case people reading this wondered why we spam agonizing wounds, this is a big part of the reason)

Suffering is already a pretty poop line. Hindering the spammable (which needed help, being only spammable 3 times) hurts a line that needs love.

The reason this is a big nerf is, if the damage is cleansable, it is not reliable. Envenomed Blade is the backbone of the damage for someone Suffering spec (as I mentioned, Witch Elves don't have a lot of attacks to rotate in). If I can't rely on the damage of the ability I'm using the most, then that hurts the entire line.

Having said that, and as much as I like the idea of a dot spec line, I wonder if a better solution would be to change Envenomed Blade to do non physical damage. Suffering does a lot of corporal or spirit damage already, so changing Envenomed Blade to one of those damage types would be in line with the rest of Suffering. Envenomed Blade needed help as is since it only stacks 3 times, so you have to rely on another spammable, like Agonizing Wounds, to fill in the gaps. Making Envenomed Blade do straight corporal damage would keep the ability in with the line and different from slice or agonizing wounds, and fix both issues with the ability.

[geezereur]

I like this direction you guys are going for, is it possible to revert Slayer and Choppa changes as well the bad ones?

[peterthepan3]

I would like to comment on the Envenomed Blade/Fervor being cleansable change. This will be more from a Witch Elf point of view, but as Witch Hunters are mirrors, this will apply to them as well.

The we and wh are classes that have a lot of buffs and situational attacks to the point that they lack attacks that can fit into a good rotation like many classes. As such they rely on their spammable attacks more than other classes. (in case people reading this wondered why we spam agonizing wounds, this is a big part of the reason)

Suffering is already a pretty poop line. Hindering the spammable (which needed help, being only spammable 3 times) hurts a line that needs love.

The reason this is a big nerf is, if the damage is cleansable, it is not reliable. Envenomed Blade is the backbone of the damage for someone Suffering spec (as I mentioned, Witch Elves don't have a lot of attacks to rotate in). If I can't rely on the damage of the ability I'm using the most, then that hurts the entire line.

Having said that, and as much as I like the idea of a dot spec line, I wonder if a better solution would be to change Envenomed Blade to do non physical damage. Suffering does a lot of corporal or spirit damage already, so changing Envenomed Blade to one of those damage types would be in line with the rest of Suffering. Envenomed Blade needed help as is since it only stacks 3 times, so you have to rely on another spammable, like Agonizing Wounds, to fill in the gaps. Making Envenomed Blade do straight corporal damage would keep the ability in with the line and different from slice or agonizing wounds, and fix both issues with the ability.

An ability that can DoT crit for 700/800+ at fast intervals - with no CD - should not be uncleansable. It also messed up somewhat with covering one's heal debuffs (particularly from WH PoV).

[dansari]

I like this direction you guys are going for, is it possible to revert Slayer and Choppa changes as well the bad ones?

We're not going to do blanket reversions of stuff which has already been done going forward. WL is a unique case which I'm sure we can all appreciate is a sensitive subject. Each ability is assessed as part of the larger class picture, within the larger realm balance (wb, 6v6). If that means that something that was done previously is viewed as needing a reversion, primarily due to the assessment, then something will be done for that ability/tree.

[Bowldancer]

And what about

we respect that you have connections to your characters and will be approaching things more in terms of evolution not revolution.

?

I mained Giantslayer for over 6 years and the Spellbreaker revamp to "Destroy Confidence" was revolutionary not evolutionary.
I know it is very strong in a vacuum and i can see why theorybalancer who never played the spec considered it a good idea but
it drastically changed the synergies within the tree and the way the spec plays to the point that i no longer enjoy it and basically quit playing.
It was a very AP-efficient relentless but highly fragile maniac with strong debuffs and a short high burst window - now it feels like a shatter bot.
There are two weak tactics in the tree you could have worked with instead (Breaking Point, Determination). An Armor-Bypass and the tree would have been done.That i would have considered evolutionary.

[Wdova]

WH/WE Ferver/Envenomed Blade
Having these be made cleansable is both a nerf and a buff, the nerf being that now high tick damage abilities can be counterplayed correctly, the buff being that now they can essentially be used to cover other dots.

Thank You for that. Another cower for EW or BaL.

[Wdova]

And what about

we respect that you have connections to your characters and will be approaching things more in terms of evolution not revolution.

?

I mained Giantslayer for over 6 years and the Spellbreaker revamp to "Destroy Confidence" was revolutionary not evolutionary.
I know it is very strong in a vacuum and i can see why theorybalancer who never played the spec considered it a good idea but
it drastically changed the synergies within the tree and the way the spec plays to the point that i no longer enjoy it and basically quit playing.
It was a very AP-efficient relentless but highly fragile maniac with strong debuffs and a short high burst window - now it feels like a shatter bot.
There are two weak tactics in the tree you could have worked with instead (Breaking Point, Determination). An Armor-Bypass and the tree would have been done.That i would have considered evolutionary.

Previously if You speced Spellbreaker, You automaticaly grab Power Thru tactic and 50% AA haste. You were spaming spellbreaker insted of pulverizing strike. Now You can A) grab power Thru tactic + 50%AA haste and spam pulverizing strike(the same tooltip dmg) or do B) spec Violent impact + optionaly Breaking point and do chain of spellbreaker+devastate+Deatblow in Yellow with 75% dmg bonus.

I like current spellbreaker more than original one(but its me) and now You have another option how to play full Giantslayer tree which is not that suicidal like the one with power thru tactic.

[Sigimund]

New spellbreaker can hit damn hard.

[carlos]

We are going to start creating feedback forums for patch notes instead of providing explanations within the patch notes themselves...

Spoiler:

The goal here is to provide clarity on why something was changed without muddying up patch notes. Since there seem to be some questions as to the direction of balance changes:

Jon (peterthepan3) and I are taking point on balance changes going forward, working with the developers to implement changes (since neither of us code). We take feedback from the community, then hash it out before coming to a consensus on what needs changing. With that said, let's get into this week's patch:

As many people will likely be frustrated with White Lion, I will try to assuage concerns about future-state for the class and what our vision is for it. Note: when I say "our" vision, I'm referring to peter and I, working with members of the community, to determine what the players want to see, what the issues are, their experiences, etc. What this means: we will do our best to develop a class that has viable 6man and warband specs. What this doesn't mean: your individual, specific concerns with the class will be addressed. The latter is simply not something that peter or I can absolutely promise to be delivered because someone within the community will inevitably feel that something needs updating, but the former is because that is our goal for every class.

What we've gathered from the community on the Woodsman tree patch is that while the changes technically made the class better with a higher skill ceiling, though at times clunky, the entire theme of the class was, for lack of a better word, butchered. Moving Loner to a renown tactic certainly opened up the possibility for a higher damage dealing class and allowed essential Woodsman tactics to be slotted, but it rendered the pet completely useless in all builds. Moving Pounce up to 13pt Axeman was viewed as an essential change so as not to allow warband WLs the opportunity to wreak havoc in a backline, but it also removed easy access to the very real love that WL players have for having such mobility (a true theme of the class that Squig Herder has trended towards taking over); it also rendered the 13pt Hunter relatively un-specced. It basically dismissed existing, fun, Hunter/Axe builds, to attempt to fit it into a Marauder-lite mold. So, while we are reverting WL to an almost-vanilla state, we will not leave it that way for long. Looking to the future of the class, we plan to implement many of the good things we got from Woodsman patch: a viable aoe build and a more defined separation of the trees. We plan to make the pet an integral part of the gameplay, and instead of dropping it completely in warband play we will at least attempt to find creative ways to include it (though again, we can't promise that the pet will exist in warband specs if it is proven to be too difficult to balance around -- the promise is that we will traverse every path in which to respect the theme of the class before going down an alternate path).

====

Shaman/AM AP drain
Shaman, moreso than AM, has had tough AP issues for a while. Reverting the disrupt changes helped in being able to land successful AP drains, but there were still issues with the creative way this was implemented. Firstly, it caused even more AP issues in PvE encounters as a Blessing was necessary for the AP drain. Secondly, the AP cost is simply too punishing. Dropping this to 30 will hopefully make it less punishing to use for both classes, as well as serve as a reliable source of AP as long as you're being good on choosing low disrupt targets.

====

Shaman Hurts, Don't It
The goal here is to give Shaman more burst dps in dps builds, similar to what AM received with Searing Touch.

====

Archmage Radiant Burst
We were beginning to see powercreep on dps AM. This will potentially help in that regard but with all things, we will continue to assess its strength.

====

Black Orc/SM Wee'z Bigger/Vaul's Tempering
This was grossly overperforming in warband, allowing 7s of being able to run through the enemy and drop morales. We are drastically reducing its potency in an effort of making it a more high skill, strategic ability rather than a fire-and-forget (given that you could keep 46% uptime on it with Whispering Winds, for example, did not make it strategic). I would like to state that it's still subject to change, as with everything we implement, so we still have these two abilities on our radar and how they can counter more specific problems in terms of CC.

====

Engineer Armor-Piercing Rounds
Strafing Run had no business being at 13pt Rifleman. As it is seen as an essential warband tool for engineers, we've moved it to core Tinkerer. In its place, developing a high cooldown buff for Rifleman seemed the best option, since there were potential powercreep issues with providing things like a ranged knockdown, a ranged slow, an unbreakable root, etc. This still provides counterplay to the Rifleman by LOSing him, but does give him a lethal buff to add to his arsenal. As with all things, we will assess how this develops going forward.

====

WH/WE Ferver/Envenomed Blade
Having these be made cleansable is both a nerf and a buff, the nerf being that now high tick damage abilities can be counterplayed correctly, the buff being that now they can essentially be used to cover other dots.

====

Now that the patch notes have been addressed, and since this is a new process we’re trying, I’ll also attempt to answer some questions I saw in the actual patch notes thread:

Firstly, changes to WL are simply too much to air here. The easiest way to view what is changing with WL is to play the class. There will be many bugs with it, and we honestly know that it’s not fun being a WL main at the moment. We ask that you simply trust the new direction and to trust the process. We are working diligently on providing a fun, viable class in every facet of the game.

“Could we comment on SW changes in the future”
Not entirely. It’s on our radar, but specs have not been hashed out fully yet. Sorry for the political-type answer, but for the purpose of being transparent, yet conservative on how much I can promise what is to come, I feel that approach is necessary. We will likely dedicate more time to WL at the moment, but we realize that SW needs further tuning.

“Order warband meta with loss of WL”
Yeah, I hear you. We realize that a lot was lost with a strong WL front in warband. Again, we ask you trust the process.

“When can we expect knight/chosen changes”
Kind of the same answer for SW above. WL will likely take precedent in the immediate future. Knight/Chosen is on the radar, but nothing at the moment. Goal is to make it have a higher skill ceiling, be less boring, more strategic, etc.

“Now that we’re reverting Aza changes…”
That’s not what we’re doing. Balance is assessed holistically; it’s not a vendetta against a developer. We decided that continuing with stances did not provide a methodological way of evolving the class. Reverting to vanilla at least allows us to tune the class where necessary, bring it back to its original intent (including pet), and tweak from there.

Whew, OK. Wall of text done. As time progresses, more of our thoughts on certain classes will get hashed out and we’ll be able to provide more to you here. We’ll do as much as possible to provide clarity on patches and future balance changes.

Cheers,
Dan

Huge thx for all that you guys are doing.

Many ppl seems to miss out on the no.1 core here...

Spoiler:

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=16391

[kweedko]

An ability that can DoT crit for 700/800+ at fast intervals - with no CD - should not be uncleansable. It also messed up somewhat with covering one's heal debuffs (particularly from WH PoV).

Problem, with skills like stackable spamming dots like Fervor lays in thing, that every time that you add a stack the dot timer resets and you have to wait 2 sec for first tick(so if you spam it 3 times first tick gonna be only in 5 sec, anyone rather spam pure dmg skill than that) - my suggestion is make those stacks ticks independent, so they could tick together but with each other small ticks. Or make it first tick on apply - so you can get hit - tick - hit- tick, hit - tick, tick, tick, tick.

(btw. Maras have the same skill "Rend")