Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

[wargrimnir]

Later tonight, provided I don't drink myself into oblivion after reading through the feedback so far, I'll go through and update some of the proposals with clarification and anything particularly salient that's been posted so far.

If you guys are posting broad baseless negativity, there's no feedback for us to gather. Except that you hate things. Well it's the internet, we all hate things. That doesn't move a thread like this in any particular direction.

[bctakhy]

I like the idea of 2h tanks get DPS morals and shield defense. It make sense. I add to Immaculate Defense diferent values when snb and 2h... like 60% snb and 40% when 2h.

Ignore inmunities is a bad idea. With little coordination u can do dirty things like chain pull enemies in to lords from outside.

Btw, now order gets one more pull, where is destro morale pounce? :>

[Skald]

M2 - Emporer's Champion

Current - Self buff STR/TGH/WND +240 for 30s
Proposed - Self buff, grant CC/snare immunity and a 20% movement speed boost for 10s

Feedback was opposed to the previous proposal as it combined too many benefits into a single buff. Pulling that back slightly, this will not cleanse your existing CC or Snares. You will need to use Juggernaut before popping this for full freedom of movement and hope you're not snared in that brief window. The reason for this change is 720 points of stats. I don't know where this comes from. KotBS already have some rather significant ways to boost their stats, adding in 720 points of Morale stats that stack with those is way overkill. Being able to move freely allows the KotBS to position for a group stagger, long knockback, and maybe a challenge before the effect wears off.

I'm not sure this really fits the class identity in any way.

Regardless, it seems rather restricting and clunky if you have to use another ability in order to get any use out of this morale.

And one more important note - Emperor's Champion is actually 15 seconds now, it has been adjusted some time ago. It's something that should definitely be taken into account - 720 points of stats certainly is significant, but it's in a relatively short burst. And from my experience, the morale is usually used in a defensive manner (in a pinch it can be treated as heal).

And that's where I see a problem, Rank 2 Tank morales are defensive in nature (and for a good reason):

Black Orc
M2 - Walk It Off

Current - 100' party buff, increase Toughness by 160 for 30s
Proposed - 100' party buff, reduce incoming crit damage by 25% for 20s
--
Chosen
M2 - Tzeentch's Amplification

Current - Self increase incoming healing by 300% for 15s
Unchanged
--
Blackguard
M2 - Away Cretins!

Current - 30' PBAOE, deal 600 damage and knockback
Unchanged
--
Ironbreaker
M2 - Skin of Iron

Current - Damage reduced to 1 for 5s
Proposed - 10s self buff, when attacked in melee disarm attacker for 5s
--
[Swordmaster]
M2 - Guard of Steel (swapping Wings of Heaven to M1)

Current - 100' party buff, increase Toughness by 120 for 10s
Proposed - 100' party buff, increase Armor by 800 for 20s

--

Worth noting - now even SMs have a rank 2 defensive morale. You could argue that new Emperor's Champion could be used as a defensive tool, but in that context it's more of an escape ability than that. Due to the fact that Juggernaut needs to be used beforehand I anticipate it will quite often be rendered useless - especially if you get hit by a new CC/snare right after its use and before the morale can actually drop (there's always a small delay).

[Luuca]

Good to see the first steps towards a more homogenized game and more mirroring of the classes. That what we need for balance is mirrored classes and this is a great first step.

Keep up the good work!!

[BeautfulToad]

i really like this changes, gonna make careers feel more unique, gud stuff.

You like the changes because you play destro. These changes will tilt the entire RVR situation in Destros favour. (tilt it over actually, it's already tilted to destro's favour)

I could not disagree with this more. I think you are assuming a lot:

1. I find M4s - which you are decrying as being game changing - are rarely used outside of seiges (and pve). Even then most of this will be spent in the few seconds in an initial push and so spent on massively buffed tanks right at the front. Morale pushes can work, but since a lot of the damage dealing M4s will be used on tanks, a lot gets absorbed. It's your M1s, M2s and M3s that can really change battles. I'd say an M1 pounce is very very good, and if destro get some buffs (the BG M4 is apparently in a tree no BG will ever take) then it will be interesting to see these changes.

2. As a player who plays on destro and order (and have tanks on both), I find order have far better tanks than you seem to think - myths around destro melee trains are largely due to a lack of melee players on order (and fear of destro melee which causes order to panic when they are being pushed). If your concern is about destro melee trains, these essentially nerf all morales on tanks making melee slightly less useful v rdps.

Overall, I would be surprised if these changes have a massive difference, and to be honest, there is so many changes, it is hard for me to work out who has got the better or worse of it. It looks like it is a general nerf to all tank morales, presumably because they were overperforming.

On a side note, I do like these balance discussions because it shows me all the tactics I should have been picking!

[Parallell86]

i really like this changes, gonna make careers feel more unique, gud stuff.

You like the changes because you play destro. These changes will tilt the entire RVR situation in Destros favour. (tilt it over actually, it's already tilted to destro's favour)

I could not disagree with this more. I think you are assuming a lot:

1. I find M4s - which you are decrying as being game changing - are rarely used outside of seiges (and pve).............

..........then you are doing it wrong. EVERY warband from TUP and FMJ to CNTK and Seventh Legion use them on a regular. Each and every warband have morale compilations for each class. They play a big part in large scale RVR.

Destros most played tanks, Black orc and chosen have self-morale pump tactics, AND THEY USE THEM. Do you know why? Apparently not. Because "no one uses morale outside sieges" right?

And since you play both sides so often, I take it you are a casual PUG. You dont get the same perspective as alot of other players running in cordinated warbands. (guild warbands)

I dare you to join our warband one night and see it from our perspective.

[Parallell86]

Good to see the first steps towards a more homogenized game and more mirroring of the classes. That what we need for balance is mirrored classes and this is a great first step.

Keep up the good work!!

So where is the Order version of the Black orc punting morale?
Why are order M3 damage morales being nerfed while Destro M3's being buffed?

Is that the homogenized kinda game you're talking about?

[Luuca]

Good to see the first steps towards a more homogenized game and more mirroring of the classes. That what we need for balance is mirrored classes and this is a great first step.

Keep up the good work!!

So where is the Order version of the Black orc punting morale?
Why are order M3 damage morales being nerfed while Destro M3's being buffed?

Is that the homogenized kinda game you're talking about?

It's only a first pass. It looks like eventually they will be mirrored. Be patient! Soon BWs on Destro!!!

[Parallell86]

Off-topic

Spoiler:

Good to see the first steps towards a more homogenized game and more mirroring of the classes. That what we need for balance is mirrored classes and this is a great first step.

Keep up the good work!!

So where is the Order version of the Black orc punting morale?
Why are order M3 damage morales being nerfed while Destro M3's being buffed?

Is that the homogenized kinda game you're talking about?

It's only a first pass. It looks like eventually they will be mirrored. Be patient! Soon BWs on Destro!!!

Ye but I think you are confusing "balancing" with making destro stronger. And currently the BW is not better than the sorc. Where did you get that? They nerfed the BW to the **** ground. If they turned my hypotetical sorc into a BW I would be **** pissed.

The sorc is superior to the BW in every aspect right now.

And no, its not gonna change. Order will never see any Destro abilities unless its something shitty and meaningless just to put out the fire and keep people quiet.

The last year, they done nothing but nerfing order and buffing destro.

- Nerfed Flashfire tactic on BW. Nerfed Wildfire tactic on BW
- Mirrored pounce from WL to melee SH which btw already have the Assault stance effect from SW (insane armor boost).
- Super buffed the WE. The dot tree. The execution abilities. Handed them everything the WH has to make sure they outclass the WH in every aspect.
- Buffed the choppas. (with broken CC, without intention of fixing it. And yes if being pulled through the keep floor is not broken...then everything works fine in comparison)
- Super buffed Black Orcs....dunno where to start. So I wont.

Most interesting:

They wanted to make abilities matching the animations a while ago.
The funny thing is, the magus rift has a 1s animation. The engineer have a 3s animation. So now it takes the engineer 4s to set off the magnet, while it only takes a total of 2s to set off the magus rift.

Homogenized enough for you?

Everything they done so far, have been in Destros favour. When this game was still untouched. Both realms had their ups and downs. Their own strenghts and weaknesses. Now its just all destro.

2010: "hey guys what is a really good class to play?" - "dude play what you enjoy, thats the best class."

2019: "Hey guys what should I play?" - "Black orc, choppa, SH or Zealot."
"I sort of like the BW."
"Then go roll a sorc."

[BeautfulToad]

You like the changes because you play destro. These changes will tilt the entire RVR situation in Destros favour. (tilt it over actually, it's already tilted to destro's favour)

I could not disagree with this more. I think you are assuming a lot:

1. I find M4s - which you are decrying as being game changing - are rarely used outside of seiges (and pve).............

..........then you are doing it wrong. EVERY warband from TUP and FMJ to CNTK and Seventh Legion use them on a regular. Each and every warband have morale compilations for each class. They play a big part in large scale RVR.

Destros most played tanks, Black orc and chosen have self-morale pump tactics, AND THEY USE THEM. Do you know why? Apparently not. Because "no one uses morale outside sieges" right?

And since you play both sides so often, I take it you are a casual PUG. You dont get the same perspective as alot of other players running in cordinated warbands. (guild warbands)

I dare you to join our warband one night and see it from our perspective.

Fine, show me evidence of widespread use of M4 outside of seiges (i dont mean one or two M4s being used, I mean several M4s outside of a seige being used). Solar flare is probably a bit excessive, even within that limitation.

I have characters in those guilds you cite. I am not going to explain myself to you, however. But since we are going to get into specifics and ad-hominem nit-picking. How's this?

I am not even saying you are completely wrong or the changes are perfect. What I am saying is that, firstly, you vastly overrate certain morales (particularly M4s) while underrating others (particuarly pounce on a tank) and, secondly, massively underrate order's tanks. Likewise, you are not really suggesting anything specific except nerf destro more and order less, which suggests you are being biased.

Take one example: You are saying all the destro M3s are being buffed, when all destro damage morales are losing a 5s silence and getting a +1s CD and +300 damage or something (is that a buff?). The only clear buff I can see is to a BG absorb ability, which devs are saying will be to bring it in line with other M3s. You might argue that M3s dont need the extra damage buff to compensate for losing a silence but that is still hardly a massive outrage, and if you really think that will break the precious balance of the game to the point the game is unplayable then you're delusional, trolling or both.