Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

[zgolec]

I have a questions to the dev team.

Destruction don't have any heal debuff and no good abilities do displace order in close quarter fights anymore. Is there any nerf or rework planned to order increased healing and damage output?
I can elaborate my thoughts.
Since these changes came right with city sieges and Altdorf is 24vs24 secnarion which find place in its long, narrow streets; I see it very difficult for destruction to play against order 6+ bws composition. Every destruction premade warband had one dps zealot. His name was known and he was always marked. So he was constantly focused or staggered/silenced. In the current situation dps zealot wouldn't be able to use WOI more than 1 tick anytime because the ammount of players who can interrupt him >=8+. So this ability is not useful anymore in 24vs24 which is the end game now.
Another topic is the order raw healing and damage. DPS-Zealot was the way to even the odds against strong damage and healing output, that was brought by kotbs,wp and rp. The heal debuff is a magic attack on crit. Since in 24vs24 situation order tanks are mainly stacked and use HTL the ammount of discupts is quite high. This can't be corrected with positioning since abilities can be disrupted from all sides in opposite to the dok.
So what I see now is that order has an upper hand in all close quarter fights and destruction meta is narrowed to 4 sorcs, 4 maras/8 sorcs.
In my opinion it is time to remove self pump tactic from the bright wizard and sorc and grant the WL a tactic for morale drain on crit.

In the light of new sets I have yet another balance question.
Since new sets will bring increase in the critical hit chance, damage and flat % damage increase will we see a change to rampage? For example why don't make it reduce the chance to parry/block and not ignore it?
As it is right now this ability in combination with % armor penetration from the Invader is doing true damage to the enemy. It can't be removed in the most of the cases because it's burrowed under other enchantments and is clearly over performing.

Since you introduced that severe nerf to all aoe heal debuffs I wonder why don't you nerf all set bonuses that allows usage of AOE armor and heal debuffs as well? For example a bright wizzard's Blood Lord set.

Last but not least.
I find very good that developers taking part in enteral testing and look how premades work on field.
I think it's very healthy and should be practiced more on both sides.
Even tho I don't believe that this is the case of a bias, I find it very upsetting that a develpoer that is involved in a game balancing discussion plays in a premade on order side. And these premade even states on streams that the developer is taking part in internal testing.

Oh. Uh. #crymeariver

You got removed the most broken skll in game and QQfest start? too bad you didnt have objection when destro whined about nerf to SM immunity skill roght after it was implemented.
[tbh despise how broken it was i wouldnt have any problem with winds staying as they were if cc imunity was still 7 sec not 3]
Rampage whine again?

Ok - when u will whine about broke aoe ini debuff and aoe kd [aoe morale drain is a cherry on top of a cake]? You were among others that whine over SW st ini debuff [conq|+skill] as far as i remember - but op af aoe debuff is fine... cause its working well for you, eh?

I know most devs lean toward destro [which can be seen with order nerfs and resist to rework/buff some classes to make em viable for anything else than solo/6man] but c'mon! Cut ur crap and get a firm grip to reality not your victim mentality fantasy.

You got numbers. More toys. Better classes for massive rvr.
The only thing Order got better from destro are players.

Luckily devs cant nerf that.

[notre]

The only thing Order got better from destro are players.

nothing better...

IIRC Natherul once said that order mirrors are indeed superior to destros and those destro morale tactics are supposed to balance it out.

From: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29912&start=100#p340288

[retekelek]

Spoiler:

I have a questions to the dev team.

Destruction don't have any heal debuff and no good abilities do displace order in close quarter fights anymore. Is there any nerf or rework planned to order increased healing and damage output?
I can elaborate my thoughts.
Since these changes came right with city sieges and Altdorf is 24vs24 secnarion which find place in its long, narrow streets; I see it very difficult for destruction to play against order 6+ bws composition. Every destruction premade warband had one dps zealot. His name was known and he was always marked. So he was constantly focused or staggered/silenced. In the current situation dps zealot wouldn't be able to use WOI more than 1 tick anytime because the ammount of players who can interrupt him >=8+. So this ability is not useful anymore in 24vs24 which is the end game now.
Another topic is the order raw healing and damage. DPS-Zealot was the way to even the odds against strong damage and healing output, that was brought by kotbs,wp and rp. The heal debuff is a magic attack on crit. Since in 24vs24 situation order tanks are mainly stacked and use HTL the ammount of discupts is quite high. This can't be corrected with positioning since abilities can be disrupted from all sides in opposite to the dok.
So what I see now is that order has an upper hand in all close quarter fights and destruction meta is narrowed to 4 sorcs, 4 maras/8 sorcs.
In my opinion it is time to remove self pump tactic from the bright wizard and sorc and grant the WL a tactic for morale drain on crit.

In the light of new sets I have yet another balance question.
Since new sets will bring increase in the critical hit chance, damage and flat % damage increase will we see a change to rampage? For example why don't make it reduce the chance to parry/block and not ignore it?
As it is right now this ability in combination with % armor penetration from the Invader is doing true damage to the enemy. It can't be removed in the most of the cases because it's burrowed under other enchantments and is clearly over performing.

Since you introduced that severe nerf to all aoe heal debuffs I wonder why don't you nerf all set bonuses that allows usage of AOE armor and heal debuffs as well? For example a bright wizzard's Blood Lord set.

Last but not least.
I find very good that developers taking part in enteral testing and look how premades work on field.
I think it's very healthy and should be practiced more on both sides.
Even tho I don't believe that this is the case of a bias, I find it very upsetting that a develpoer that is involved in a game balancing discussion plays in a premade on order side. And these premade even states on streams that the developer is taking part in internal testing.

Oh. Uh. #crymeariver

You got removed the most broken skll in game and QQfest start? too bad you didnt have objection when destro whined about nerf to SM immunity skill roght after it was implemented.
[tbh despise how broken it was i wouldnt have any problem with winds staying as they were if cc imunity was still 7 sec not 3]
Rampage whine again?

Ok - when u will whine about broke aoe ini debuff and aoe kd [aoe morale drain is a cherry on top of a cake]? You were among others that whine over SW st ini debuff [conq|+skill] as far as i remember - but op af aoe debuff is fine... cause its working well for you, eh?

I know most devs lean toward destro [which can be seen with order nerfs and resist to rework/buff some classes to make em viable for anything else than solo/6man] but c'mon! Cut ur crap and get a firm grip to reality not your victim mentality fantasy.

You got numbers. More toys. Better classes for massive rvr.
The only thing Order got better from destro are players.

Luckily devs cant nerf that.

Dont know what was that Sm immunity thing but as u saying it, it was implemented, if i get it right from ur words it was integrated by the ror devs, winds was always like this, like it was in live.

OP as F aoe healdebuff was not op as f but whatever, order also got runies, and some order guilds also used em in thier comps if it was op both reamls had the opportunity to use em.

And yeah what the F about Rampage? when will it be nerfed? 20 sec uptime 10 sec cd before pop it again, slayers can melt in invader complete frontlines regarless they hitting dps or tanks. If someting is OP as F than thats it is. and dont say it can be shattered, when its burried under other enchaments and they got high parry from their tanks.

[Greenbeast]

Spoiler:

I have a questions to the dev team.

Destruction don't have any heal debuff and no good abilities do displace order in close quarter fights anymore. Is there any nerf or rework planned to order increased healing and damage output?
I can elaborate my thoughts.
Since these changes came right with city sieges and Altdorf is 24vs24 secnarion which find place in its long, narrow streets; I see it very difficult for destruction to play against order 6+ bws composition. Every destruction premade warband had one dps zealot. His name was known and he was always marked. So he was constantly focused or staggered/silenced. In the current situation dps zealot wouldn't be able to use WOI more than 1 tick anytime because the ammount of players who can interrupt him >=8+. So this ability is not useful anymore in 24vs24 which is the end game now.
Another topic is the order raw healing and damage. DPS-Zealot was the way to even the odds against strong damage and healing output, that was brought by kotbs,wp and rp. The heal debuff is a magic attack on crit. Since in 24vs24 situation order tanks are mainly stacked and use HTL the ammount of discupts is quite high. This can't be corrected with positioning since abilities can be disrupted from all sides in opposite to the dok.
So what I see now is that order has an upper hand in all close quarter fights and destruction meta is narrowed to 4 sorcs, 4 maras/8 sorcs.
In my opinion it is time to remove self pump tactic from the bright wizard and sorc and grant the WL a tactic for morale drain on crit.

In the light of new sets I have yet another balance question.
Since new sets will bring increase in the critical hit chance, damage and flat % damage increase will we see a change to rampage? For example why don't make it reduce the chance to parry/block and not ignore it?
As it is right now this ability in combination with % armor penetration from the Invader is doing true damage to the enemy. It can't be removed in the most of the cases because it's burrowed under other enchantments and is clearly over performing.

Since you introduced that severe nerf to all aoe heal debuffs I wonder why don't you nerf all set bonuses that allows usage of AOE armor and heal debuffs as well? For example a bright wizzard's Blood Lord set.

Last but not least.
I find very good that developers taking part in enteral testing and look how premades work on field.
I think it's very healthy and should be practiced more on both sides.
Even tho I don't believe that this is the case of a bias, I find it very upsetting that a develpoer that is involved in a game balancing discussion plays in a premade on order side. And these premade even states on streams that the developer is taking part in internal testing.

Oh. Uh. #crymeariver

You got removed the most broken skll in game and QQfest start? too bad you didnt have objection when destro whined about nerf to SM immunity skill roght after it was implemented.
[tbh despise how broken it was i wouldnt have any problem with winds staying as they were if cc imunity was still 7 sec not 3]
Rampage whine again?

Ok - when u will whine about broke aoe ini debuff and aoe kd [aoe morale drain is a cherry on top of a cake]? You were among others that whine over SW st ini debuff [conq|+skill] as far as i remember - but op af aoe debuff is fine... cause its working well for you, eh?

I know most devs lean toward destro [which can be seen with order nerfs and resist to rework/buff some classes to make em viable for anything else than solo/6man] but c'mon! Cut ur crap and get a firm grip to reality not your victim mentality fantasy.

You got numbers. More toys. Better classes for massive rvr.
The only thing Order got better from destro are players.

Luckily devs cant nerf that.

I recommend you to use a punching bag or to masturbate to reduce the level of your passive aggressiveness toward people you barley know.
And don't you dare to place words into my mouth and tell what I said and what I didn't without any quotes.
I challenge you to demonstrate us your skills in person every warband we play. Until than cut your crap and stop intimidating me.

Balance in this game is not about one side. Destruction needed this tools to counter order bright wizard warbands. It could have been reworked and it should have been reworked together with the tools it actually countered.
As for SM cc immunity it was nerfed on the destruction side as well, since it is mirrored to the black orc. I still believe that this skill should have longer duration because right now it's not worth taking at all and it's absolutely impossible to use it under any circumstances.

Doesn't seem very productive or tactful.

[anarchypark]

are you seriously defend this broken ability?
you know it's almost cheat if u ever used it.
what kind of logic is that toggle is ok doing some shits.

can't believe complains are more than city siege praise comment.

[retekelek]

are you seriously defend this broken ability?
you know it's almost cheat if u ever used it.
what kind of logic is that toggle is ok doing some shits.

can't believe complains are more than city siege praise comment.

ofc, and it was proved whit argumetably points, which i do not see in your comment. You can read back.

[wonshot]

Last but not least.
I find very good that developers taking part in enteral testing and look how premades work on field.
I think it's very healthy and should be practiced more on both sides.
Even tho I don't believe that this is the case of a bias, I find it very upsetting that a develpoer that is involved in a game balancing discussion plays in a premade on order side. And these premade even states on streams that the developer is taking part in internal testing.

While this is dangerous territory I guess I'll try to adress this, as I assume it was directed at me?
Yes we had a Dev in our warband, after he applied to join as a full on guildmember, and be treated as a guildmember(and not a Dev-player!). That involves getting spammed on discord and waking up to 150+ new messages in our theorycrafting section, doing internal guild-tests in offzones where we play chars on both realms to test out how different mechanics interact with eachother. This new member had an idea about how his class would interact with the Zealot winds of insanity mechanic, and the change to this ability is probably because he realized how there was no actual counterplay to an ability prenerf did the following:

- Drained the Zealot's AP point periodically (ap pots are a thing)
- punted back all enemyplayers(24aoe cap) for the 6sec duration, without granting them punt/pull/root immunity
- undefendable ticks of damage (no longer relevant as AOE healdebuffing on crit is gone)
- allowed for the zealot to cast all normal abilities + morales while the Self-toggle of Winds of insanity is ongoing (creating a safezone while grouphealing or ressing)
- Immune to all sorts of setback, cc, interrupts while the toggle was on

Winds of Insanity needed a window where there is counterplay against it, because in a keep or funnel situation not having line of sight to super punt a zealot preemptively this one ability could stop a full M4 push. And it could be chained by other zealots as followup, potentially. (an other change could had been to just give Wind of Insanity a 6player aoe cap like Rift)

Now with the change, as I read the patchnotes. It sounds like the goal was to give a sort of counterplay reactionary and not preemptively. And I support this, and have been asking for this. But after testing the change on my own zealot, right now you cant do the following:

- Toggling on Winds of insanity you cant toggle it off again by pressing it twice. for quick kite+punt moves if you get dogpilled on.
- Escape will stop the channel if you wish to do so
- attempting to cast any other ability while Winds of insanity is toggled will now interrupt the effect (?) seemed too harsh of a nerf and if possible should be fixed!
- CC effects will now stop the effect (patchnotes read only "Hard interrupts such as taunt") so is this intented? Since the Selfblessing of Winds of insanity is still rooting the zealot in place, should it not be immune to CC but with the change, just not be immue to taunts and direct interrupts?

AOE 50%healdebuffs removed is still a massive mistake for warbandplay. And it begs the question, what is next? Aoe armor debuffs, aoe resist debuffs (they stack on destro, right? while order doesnt) aoe ini debuffs?

@Grunbe. I dont fully agree with the statement of Destro not having advantages in closecombat now with Winds of Insanity nerfed.
Destro still have Mara aoe knockdown, unmatched in unmirrored version on Order.
Meatball chargechannel still does a little babypunt serving as an aoe interrupt with a very short punt immunity
Winds of insanity is still a thing, tho much weaker and much more exposed & has counterplay now.
Snareproc from dok covernant are exelent to keep those pesky BW deathballs in place.

I would just like to eccho what others have said, think about the bigger picture here Devs with these drastic changes to aoe healdebuffs. And I truely hope to see more largescale balancing where more options become viable instead of keep removing options, as its the case with dps runepriest and zealot for warband play.

[aa91837]

RAMPAGE

are you seriously defend this broken ability?
you know it's almost cheat if u ever used it.

[retekelek]

- Drained the Zealot's AP point periodically (ap pots are a thing)
- punted back all enemyplayers(24aoe cap) for the 6sec duration, without granting them punt/pull/root immunity
- undefendable ticks of damage (no longer relevant as AOE healdebuffing on crit is gone)
- allowed for the zealot to cast all normal abilities + morales while the Self-toggle of Winds of insanity is ongoing (creating a safezone while grouphealing or ressing)
- Immune to all sorts of setback, cc, interrupts while the toggle was on

Winds of Insanity needed a window where there is counterplay against it, because in a keep or funnel situation not having line of sight to super punt a zealot preemptively this one ability could stop a full M4 push. And it could be chained by other zealots as followup, potentially. (an other change could had been to just give Wind of Insanity a 6player aoe cap like Rift)

- Ap pots also has a cd:) WoI + channeling Chaotic agitation usually wont let the last tick of WoI happen becasue u runnend out ap before it, ap kotbs aura+am ap drain could drain it fast.
- thats seems good in paper (24 aoe cap punting) in reality half wb always was punt immune from other sources
- i dont know where that information come from, whit the undefendable damage ticks, i always saw disrupts.
- well yeah, and it kinda what the ability is made for. But dont forget, u had to go 14 points in mastery tree for it, and it roots u for the using time.
-thats not true, for WoI, the ability itself was not interruptable, but u could get punted/silenced/knocked down. thats not true that u was immune for cc while it was on.

Yeah it was strong in fort and keep plays, if u could survive the morale bomb.
And what about Solar Flare on Kotbs for fort and keep plays? i was in a fort attack whit my tank, every time before we got m4 to ready to push 3-4 kotbs come out, droped thier morale drain on both sides frontline and we wasnt able to use m4 on pushing attempts. it was a massacre for order.

[Fey]

I don't have much experience with WoL, but you could always be knocked back correct? If so you could always use cleansing flare or point blank to counter. As a healing AM I would watch for WoL like a hawk in fort defense. I don't play much order though. 100 foot KB on three classes seems like a perfectly plausible counter.