What is a ranged shadow warriors role meant to be exactly?

[UnspeakableOath]

Many of us have made constructive comments on how to make SW more viable. It's difficult to know "the direction we're moving in" if we don't have any feedback on whether we are heard when we give commentary. Aside from one post defending the changes, I've not been able to identify any publicly available roadmap or design document or set of goalposts or written strategy for what these changes were supposed to achieve. If there is such a document, perhaps the devs can share it with the playerbase in order to get feedback now that some (hopefully not all) the changes outlined within it have been implemented. Things can look great on paper, but not function in real-world settings with the same magnitude and I'm getting the impression that is what we are dealing with in this case.

What were the goals of this project?
What metrics are being used to measure the success or failure of the implemented changes?
What feedback from players is needed?
What method should players use to provide this feedback so that it will reach project leads?

I don't think there is any malice in the development of these changes, I just think that there are things that need to be clarified between the developers and the players of the class so that real, positive change is effected.

After all, taking a underutilized and underpowered class and changing it just to have it still be underutilized and underpowered is a waste of everyone's time and can, by no stretch of the imagination be considered a success for anyone involved.

We all want to see this project succeed. Help us help you.

[jaxamillian]

I would love to make constructive criticism with the direction we are moving towards. But people who play SW's have no idea what direction that is...

The direction right now appears to be a choice of small dot damage in a 65 foot range or running out of AP every 2 seconds in a 120 foot range,while hopefully doing 50% dmg to a cloth caster (god forbid they dodge or heal or guard)

[Moert]

If I was in charge, I would try to make SW into a versatile class that utilizes stance swapping much more.

Some ideas:

1) I would be interested in seeing how the class played if you had more mastery points available, so you could better utilize all three stances. I don't know how many mastery points, it would take some experimentation and likely tweaking to not make it overpowered if the class suddenly had 45 mastery points at level 40/40

2) Make it so you can have one set of tactics saved for each stance, when you swap stance the tactics change.


One thing I really miss as a scout SW is being able to swap to skirmish stance and use Lileath's Arrow for aoe damage. I think LA is a really fun ability that builds when moving and then fires off, I would definitely try to make it a core ability that is viable. It hurts to see how bad it is now with 5 sec CD :/

[anarchypark]

it's kiting class.
long - mid - melee : switching range is class mechanic.

like all other classes, they mix 2 masteries. that means SW cover 2 ranges.
I'm sure you've kited any melees to death with no problem.

does bomb meta need it ? No.
so you got aoe+morale tool. and wb slot.

imagine that WH never use stealth but complains his weak armor.
same for you SW.
use your kiting skill.
it requires more than 1 button though.
It's WASD, mouse and LoS.

if that's too hard, ask eye shot be moving shot in skirmish, under VoN.
prolly reduce range to 80.
( it's 110 in scout currently )

as much as i wanna QQ yelling L2P, I didn't. for constructive point.
dry out your QQ then maybe there's some value to read.

lastly feedback can be denied if too much narrow sighted opinion.
same as you gonna deny mine.

[TimOh]

Spoiler:

quote=wargrimnir post_id=423868 time=1593286404 user_id=32991]

I think the SW changes can be summed up by looking at one thing, the unchanged r4 morale in scout, which does LESS damage than the BASE r4, and takes twice the time to do it.....lol

FEAR THE MASSIVE 2190 AOE OVER TEN SECONDS. (HUGE 20 FOOT RADIUS)

complete lack of attention to detail overall, just revert everything and start again.

We haven't touched morales because the rest of the classes also have pretty bad spec morales. That's a whole different project.

Keep yelling into the wind with the "revert everything". That's not going to happen. Better to make some constructive comments on what can reasonably change with the direction we're moving in.
[/quote]

What direction are you guys moving in?

[Mystry]

I believe the problem with SW's 'role' lies not with SW itself, but with BW. As it stands, bombing BW is basically the best AOE and single target BW is the best single target. BW just completely eclipses SW in every ranged area.

Engineer has the utility angle covered, so don't even bother with that.

Personally? I think SW should be monsters at single target. As good as BW is now, and nerf BW ST. Let them be the kings of AOE, and SW be the kings of single target. Or visa versa. I don't care. The point is that you can't have BW be the best at **** everything or any time you try to buff SW, idiots will cry out B-B-BUT U CANT BUFF PAST BW CUZ BW IS THE DAMAGE RANGED!!11!1!.

None of this applies to assault of course.

[Raldoran]

it's kiting class.
long - mid - melee : switching range is class mechanic.

like all other classes, they mix 2 masteries. that means SW cover 2 ranges.
I'm sure you've kited any melees to death with no problem.

does bomb meta need it ? No.
so you got aoe+morale tool. and wb slot.

imagine that WH never use stealth but complains his weak armor.
same for you SW.
use your kiting skill.
it requires more than 1 button though.
It's WASD, mouse and LoS.

if that's too hard, ask eye shot be moving shot in skirmish, under VoN.
prolly reduce range to 80.
( it's 110 in scout currently )

as much as i wanna QQ yelling L2P, I didn't. for constructive point.
dry out your QQ then maybe there's some value to read.

lastly feedback can be denied if too much narrow sighted opinion.
same as you gonna deny mine.

Really a kiting class, that's possibly the stupidest comment I've seen, exactly what are we supposed to be kiting them with we have pretty much no escape tools?

Whirling pin?.. not likely it doesn't punt you back even remotely far enough to be of any use and half the time it doesn't even fire properly

Well maybe takedown then? Whilst in theory its good idea its still only a 40% reduction in movement for 10 secs and for both of these we have no chance of getting back to a safe distance in time to actually start doing dmg to the target

And finally the key bit for being able to kite a class effectively you need to actually do some dmg to the class pursuing you which for any variant of ranged sw (scout stance especialy) is not viable at the moment as we have to stand still to do anything.

The only time attempting to kite anything works is when the destro chasing you is heavily under geared and that shouldn't be the key factor in any situation.

what we could do with if your insistence is that we are kiting class is some form of root or pin in place, that way we could escape to safe distance and then things like takedown become a viable option to kite properly.

Looking at the three tress the way it should have been set out is:

Scout is the long ranged glass cannon, heavy burst dmg but wont last long if you get to them.

Skirmish the mobile kiting dot machine

Assault an in your face melee warrior

[Sabertooth]

I think the SW changes can be summed up by looking at one thing, the unchanged r4 morale in scout, which does LESS damage than the BASE r4, and takes twice the time to do it.....lol

FEAR THE MASSIVE 2190 AOE OVER TEN SECONDS. (HUGE 20 FOOT RADIUS)

complete lack of attention to detail overall, just revert everything and start again.

We haven't touched morales because the rest of the classes also have pretty bad spec morales. That's a whole different project.

Keep yelling into the wind with the "revert everything". That's not going to happen. Better to make some constructive comments on what can reasonably change with the direction we're moving in.

It is my opinion but if the whole community asks you to restore the skills of the class, it means that mistakes have been made and maybe admitting that you have made a mistake and giving him more listening would be the best thing to do since they are those people that run the server ..... Being to defend the changes with a drawn sword makes no sense.

[Stophy22]

The changes were done and the feedback is given. If you don’t like the feedback don’t ask for different feedback that devalues the feedback given to you.
Accept the idea is poor and let’s move forward together, it’s literally okay to be wrong I promise.

When designing any class people will have conflicting ideas and opinions I think the biggest thing to consider is you have 3 classes of range

Engi
Bw
Sw

Engi is your ranged sniping camper
While bw is your heavy damage both aoe and single target
In all regards you have shadow warrior who is better as a melee class but is classified as a ranged class. He has no idea what he is, so this is where we ask the question, “what do I want him to be”

With ranged sniper and aoe/single target high damage taken that leaves utility wide open to catch the pass.

If you don’t want shadow warrior to be utility based then you have more work ahead of you changing the identity of the other classes. Smart ideas require a thought process. You can’t just add numbers to abilities followed by penalties Otherwise this just sets you up for failure as the plan is poorly thought out.

Shadow warrior already has a ranged KD, give him decent utility to cement him as a character and give him an identity. Uniqueness is key here you don’t want to just mirror stuff because that’s bland but it’s not a bad start. 2 classes share a common identity, squig and Mara. Take a look at why those classes are important and again give it thought.

If you want help from the community reach out, no matter the level of disdain you have for us I’m sure if you contact the correct person they’d be willing to share their time and effort. We all love this project and want to help but you consistently belittle us and shut us out and remain stubborn about poorly thought out ideas. As a leader you have to accept you aren’t right 100% of the time and use your resources given to you. To think you can fix something that an entire team couldn’t do during the live period of the game is a little ignorant. But we can put our heads together and solve some **** if you’re willing.

Classes feel and are funnest to play when they have an identity. An identity creates appeal which gravitates players attracted by that appeal. If you have no identity for the class players will probably gravitate toward classes that do have an identity that they like.

-wh/we can go stealth and gank
-bw/engi/magus/sorc are obvious choices keep defense will massive aoe spells from a safe distance
-tanks keep people weaker than themselves alive and lower the stress of healers
-healers are the **** backbone of this entire game

The easiest identity to give shadow warrior would be a “keep defender” as all the other ranged classes fall into this category but if you’re creative and want to be unique you literally have full control you can make it into whatever you want. Whether it be they have insane armor pen so they’re good tank killers or they hit a lot so they cause setbacks agains casters or they have many ranged interrupts or **** theyre the first class to actually do decent Corporeal damage who knows man. Point is the class needs an identity, the question “what role does shadow warrior preform” has to be answered if you want to have a decent class because most classes can answer this question, I’ll give some examples

-chosen and knight have auras to disrupt forces just by being around them, while simultaneously buffing allies, and a laid back approach to anyone considering learning the tanking role.
-black orc and choppa and Sm all do that cool thing of reducing cool downs by 5 which is huge in the whole city meta atm. Not really an identity but something defining.
-dok and warrior priest remain tanky healers who have fast group heals and group cleanse aNd a resource outside of AP.
-white lions have supreme mobility and burst as well as utility and are able to take out speedy goblins very easily where other classes would get kited.
-sorc and bw offer undeniable damage at the cost of a risky(ish) mechanic but still cement themselves as “the big damage casters” of the game
-engi and magus are snipe lords with 210 feet of indefensible damage not even detaunts reach these classes before 1-3 attacks hit you. And they even have some uniqueness outside of that with aoe AND utility/cc.
-shaman and am have so many dots and tools they’ve all but cemented themselves as solo roam kings and queens.
-wh/we are stealth solo classes that shine at taking out a target or two and disappearing into the shadows to do it again.

And once you finally have an identity for yourself class you need to consider if it fits into the game you have in front of you. Right now in RoR you have made AOE king and morale dropping the meta. Forts and cities (numbers above 6vs numbers above 6) are how you get the better gear so single target doesn’t have the biggest impact here but can still have a place. Classes like wh and we who have an identity that excelled by playing by itself suddenly feel cheated they have nothing to contribute to aoe warband meta. On your knees and dragon gun is a joke and slice hitting only 3 players is just even bigger of a slap to face. Wondering why you have players crying about their class? Cause they don’t fit in anymore to what you’ve designed.

At the end of the day if you actually where to read this entire post and see it as rubbish and the angry shoutings of a passionate warhammer nerd and game designer then alas I cannot help but at least I tried. I’m tired of seeing this iron rule that you’re never wrong and we are always wrong because that is certainly false. Deep down we all want to contribute and help, allow us. Please.

[adapter]

Better to make some constructive comments on what can reasonably change with the direction we're moving in.

Well I'll share some ideas that I've already mentioned:

1. Increase range in Scout/Big Shootin abilities
2. Give real utility to Skirmirsh / Quick Shootin, meaning as utility: AP drain, slows, building times debuff, cooldown debuff, morale drain, stat debuffs, etc.
3. Increase AoE burst on Smirmirsh/Quick Shootin.