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City Winner History?

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emiliorv
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Posts: 1295

Re: City Winner History?

Post#81 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:26 pm

teiloh wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:55 pm
Spoiler:
Foofmonger wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:59 pm

This is just not a comprehensive or accurate way to look at the game unfortunately. Nor do I agree with your premise, KOTBS and SM are great classes and compare well to their counterparts. IB and BG have some issues, of which IB comes out the loser and BG is slightly more viable.
SM CD reducer is vastly inferior to the new one added to BOs (which should be removed from the game), as well as the needlessly-buffed Chop Fasta. This is a HUGE deal for builds/rotations.

And not every WP has Exalted Defenses up all the time, and having +15% heals from the Knight requires you to essentially waste an Aura slot and use up 4 tactic slots across 4 Knights.

DOKs and Chosens don't have access to healing output in this specific form,
but DOKs can easily slot something that raises SE regen/defenses so that their throughput equalizes.
Spoiler:
This is is why you don't see much of a difference in the healing numbers - in fact, DOKs usually do more healed/second because of realm/class synergies.

WP can't spam MB every 8 seconds like a DoK can, for instance, because they don't have practically 80-100% uptime on their CD reducer. Nor can they wipe out all of the enemy's strongest DoTs/debuffs with a single M2, including heal debuffs.
WP have access to the same tactic to regen RF on defense => its exactly the same tactic that DoK (fueled actions for DOK // fueled fury for WP)...so this equalizes nothing.

This guy (WP) on another post say that his wp has exalted defenses 100% up ( i dont play wp so...) :
sogeou wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:45 pm My WP has 60% disrupt when using the disrupt tactic and I stack it with full conq proc. This makes the 20% more healing proc always up.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=39333&start=50

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nuadarstark
Posts: 226

Re: City Winner History?

Post#82 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:29 pm

TreefAM wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:48 pm
Well, yes from the complete PUG organised WB standpoint, we have us RoA alliance folks (Aillune, Beastz, Toymachine plus occasional overflow leaders), Graffer and then guild WBs who are looking to fill up their ranks with people they at least know like when CNTK, Bene, LbL look for people on region or /t4. That said I don't usually push it past 2 in the morning CEST, so NA folks also might have some other leaders.
[/quote]

Out of the guild mentioned I think it's only Cature that does Orvr outside of guild events, but you don't see CNTK or LbL on every night fighting in the lakes, you see the semi organized pugs like Beastz. I run 12-18 mans with discord more or less every night and often the only fights we get are Beastz or those from his guild, occasionally Cature and we used to see Tilean Warlords up and about as well until like a month ago (did something happen to that guild), CNTK, Bombling/Rolgrom or FUREUR are not that common of a sight.
[/quote]

CNTK does open their WB quite often, not just when they outright have their events. But it is less than it used to. And yeah Bene and Cature for sure, unless they have straight up 30 people online like the other day. LbL I see sometimes advertising in . Tileans idk what happend. A lot of Order guilds kinda disintegrated over last month.

I do feel that it's often just us RoA (Alliance of Rescue Team, OB, guilds like our Reforged, etc) that are propping up Order on non-event days.
Raid boss Salv WP Guernios - rr83, full Sov
DPS SnB SM Valianoris - rr81, full Sov

nuadarstark
Posts: 226

Re: City Winner History?

Post#83 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:36 pm

emiliorv wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:26 pm
teiloh wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:55 pm
Spoiler:
Foofmonger wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:59 pm

This is just not a comprehensive or accurate way to look at the game unfortunately. Nor do I agree with your premise, KOTBS and SM are great classes and compare well to their counterparts. IB and BG have some issues, of which IB comes out the loser and BG is slightly more viable.
SM CD reducer is vastly inferior to the new one added to BOs (which should be removed from the game), as well as the needlessly-buffed Chop Fasta. This is a HUGE deal for builds/rotations.

And not every WP has Exalted Defenses up all the time, and having +15% heals from the Knight requires you to essentially waste an Aura slot and use up 4 tactic slots across 4 Knights.

DOKs and Chosens don't have access to healing output in this specific form,
but DOKs can easily slot something that raises SE regen/defenses so that their throughput equalizes.
Spoiler:
This is is why you don't see much of a difference in the healing numbers - in fact, DOKs usually do more healed/second because of realm/class synergies.

WP can't spam MB every 8 seconds like a DoK can, for instance, because they don't have practically 80-100% uptime on their CD reducer. Nor can they wipe out all of the enemy's strongest DoTs/debuffs with a single M2, including heal debuffs.
WP have access to the same tactic to regen RF on defense => its exactly the same tactic that DoK (fueled actions for DOK // fueled fury for WP)...so this equalizes nothing.

This guy (WP) on another post say that his wp has exalted defenses 100% up ( i dont play wp so...) :
sogeou wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:45 pm My WP has 60% disrupt when using the disrupt tactic and I stack it with full conq proc. This makes the 20% more healing proc always up.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=39333&start=50
As a WP running with almost 57% disrupt and Exalted Defenses, I can say that when I want to (and I always want to), I can have the proc on almost all the time. I think that's just a tradeoff between different things in this particular mirror - DoK has it's own great utility like better morales and some very nice abilities WPs don't have. I think that out of all the almost straight up mirrors, the WP/DoK one is one of the most balanced. They each bring their own flavours into mix and they each have a different smallscale viable offspec (DPS DoK, Grace WP).
Raid boss Salv WP Guernios - rr83, full Sov
DPS SnB SM Valianoris - rr81, full Sov

baurogg
Suspended
Posts: 51

Re: City Winner History?

Post#84 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:48 pm

If that x-realming is normal for endgame then wipe the server and start fresh, the game is broken as is.
Last edited by baurogg on Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nat3s
Posts: 450

Re: City Winner History?

Post#85 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:49 pm

Order has the better melee train with WL, Slayer and aSW, but almost all Order premades I've faced in cities with PNP have been the standard BW deathball comp because Order has too many BW/Engis. I can't tell you how many times we've queued into Bombling and known it was a free win.

Problem Order has is deathball is sooooo overused that it's now incredibly easy to counter as Destro have had sooooo much experience facing it: You see the BW ball approaching, you spread to avoid aoe and morale bomb, you then regroup after they've bombed and you've got a nicely grouped up bunch of Order squishies to nuke. Simple.

Things won't get better until BW and Engi are less prevalent for Order such that other meta comps, such as their incredibly strong melee train, see a bit more use imo. They need to ditch the 1 dimensional persistence with only running BW deathballs.
Defraz rr81 Magus
Defrack rr81 Mara
Induce rr77 Shaman
rr7x AM, Choppa, WL, WH, WE, BG

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Alfa1986
Posts: 542

Re: City Winner History?

Post#86 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:55 pm

Image


In fact, if we look at the number of instances and the percentage of victories, we will see that when the number of instances is maximum (population peak hours), then the percentage of victories order / destruction is practically equal (with a slight difference). And the largest gap is achieved when the number of instances is minimal (when there are few people on the server, morning, afternoon or late evening, night hours).
This suggests that during peak times of population, both order and destro have almost equal numbers of pre-mades and pug players. When the population is small on the server, one side is more organized (usually destro), and has a large number of pre-mades, while the other has almost none.

this also explains the fact that cities mostly happen at night or in the morning for the majority of EU players. simply because it is easier for pre-mades to organize themselves on one side and arrange a city with a small population during these hours. that's all. and it’s not a matter of faction balance/imbalance.
15th orks on a dead elf's chest
yo ho ho and a bottle of rum

baurogg
Suspended
Posts: 51

Re: City Winner History?

Post#87 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:03 pm

nat3s wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:49 pm Things won't get better until BW and Engi are less prevalent for Order such that other meta comps, such as their incredibly strong melee train, see a bit more use imo. They need to ditch the 1 dimensional persistence with only running BW deathballs.
They could as well buf engis to the Olymp and nerf all mellees to make a balance.

Just do something, people will tell the game is Destro-Dominated and at some point there will not be much Order left.

velenne
Posts: 92

Re: City Winner History?

Post#88 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:08 pm

Alfa1986 wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:55 pm

In fact, if we look at the number of instances and the percentage of victories, we will see that when the number of instances is maximum (population peak hours), then the percentage of victories order / destruction is practically equal (with a slight difference). And the largest gap is achieved when the number of instances is minimal (when there are few people on the server, morning, afternoon or late evening, night hours).
This suggests that during peak times of population, both order and destro have almost equal numbers of pre-mades and pug players. When the population is small on the server, one side is more organized (usually destro), and has a large number of pre-mades, while the other has almost none.

this also explains the fact that cities mostly happen at night or in the morning for the majority of EU players. simply because it is easier for pre-mades to organize themselves on one side and arrange a city with a small population during these hours. that's all. and it’s not a matter of faction balance/imbalance.
This simply isn't the case. I just took all of the city sieges with at least 25 instances (n=23) and found that it's still 60/40% favoring destro.

If we do cities with at least 30 instances (n=6).... Still 60/40 destro.

Image
Last edited by velenne on Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: City Winner History?

Post#89 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:11 pm

Ramlaen wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:44 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:59 pmOrder tends to sit at roughly 135% healing (exalted defenses and focus mending).
Just to put this in perspective here for the peanut gallery, Foofmonger is justifying the effect of a single Chosen with something that takes 12 characters in an Order warband to achieve (and at the sacrafice of RP utility).

And that is if you pretend your 8 WP have an off defense buff up constantly.
You pretend, that anyone cares about 25% healdebuffs on non-focus targets.
On focus targets you always have 50% hd up.
For a healdebuff to actually matter you need 50%.
Dying is no option.

Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: City Winner History?

Post#90 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:30 pm

teiloh wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:55 pm
Foofmonger wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:59 pm

This is just not a comprehensive or accurate way to look at the game unfortunately. Nor do I agree with your premise, KOTBS and SM are great classes and compare well to their counterparts. IB and BG have some issues, of which IB comes out the loser and BG is slightly more viable.
SM CD reducer is vastly inferior to the new one added to BOs (which should be removed from the game), as well as the needlessly-buffed Chop Fasta. This is a HUGE deal for builds/rotations.

And not every WP has Exalted Defenses up all the time, and having +15% heals from the Knight requires you to essentially waste an Aura slot and use up 4 tactic slots across 4 Knights.

DOKs and Chosens don't have access to healing output in this specific form, but DOKs can easily slot something that raises SE regen/defenses so that their throughput equalizes. This is is why you don't see much of a difference in the healing numbers - in fact, DOKs usually do more healed/second because of realm/class synergies.

WP can't spam MB every 8 seconds like a DoK can, for instance, because they don't have practically 80-100% uptime on their CD reducer. Nor can they wipe out all of the enemy's strongest DoTs/debuffs with a single M2, including heal debuffs.
Also all true, if we go past just "raw healing and raw healing debuffs" and look at the full picture, there is further pros/cons and nuance. This is entirely my point, I'm not trying to say "its all perfectly balanced", I'm trying to illustrate that you can't just compare the Chosen's heal debuff to the Knights heal boost in a 1-1 ratio and say "Chosen is 10% more thats OP" because there are a variety of other factors that need to be considered when looking at full faction performance and synergy.

To go even further, as you did, and start comparing Morale access, morale synergy, etc... would be the next step that I personally didn't want to go into above, since that is completely offtopic for this discussion, just wanted to point out that when discussing balance, we need to look at the big picture and not just compare abilities in 1-1 vacuum.

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