Fort Win Rate Tracker

[Sundowner]

Why can destro win keeps but not forts?
Because destro can only zerg and gank, which works for keeps but not for forts.
If destro was really weaker, they wouldn't make it to forts in the first place and Order would be in IC 24/7, see: Underpowered Order at the start of the year.
That's all.

Forts and keeps are different on many levels. When taking keep closing posterns prior to inner keep push, fast reinforcement to attacker sides, blocking warcamps, etc. can help attackers. In forts you can guarantee that almost all attackers are pushing and almost all defenders are defending, hence breaking through doors is more difficult.

[farng84]

Why can destro win keeps but not forts?
Because destro can only zerg and gank, which works for keeps but not for forts.
If destro was really weaker, they wouldn't make it to forts in the first place and Order would be in IC 24/7, see: Underpowered Order at the start of the year.
That's all.

Forts and keeps are different on many levels. When taking keep closing posterns prior to inner keep push, fast reinforcement to attacker sides, blocking warcamps, etc. can help attackers. In forts you can guarantee that almost all attackers are pushing and almost all defenders are defending, hence breaking through doors is more difficult.

You could include two other points:
1) In keeps there is no limit to population difference you can be outnumbered 2-1. Without a significant population gap destro is bound to lose the assault (I could say a larger gap compared to what is required to order, but I have no numbers nor global view).
2) Sometimes zones are scarcely defended to better farm forts, that I know for a fact as when I play my IB I do read order chat

[Sybreal]

They keep buffing order side, the SW does crazy aoe now and I believe they fixed dragons gun on w/h , 2 more classes to stack aoe with the engi's and b/w. With nothing for destro side, mara aoe nerfed, choppa aoe nerfed. Yes it is a team game and composition is vital to wins/ loss. I think they are doing what they can to try and level out the matching with forts. Order just has better aoe atm. Prove me wrong ?

The slayer comment is valid. The WH and Engi ones are less so. Over the past week, the WBs I've been in have had maybe 1 WH (because we couldn't fill the dps slot with anything else). Also, I hadn't seen an engi until we had a drunk warband going and were defending Pogwald. Very few Order play WH. Much much less than WEs. They're just not the right kind of tool for what we have to deal with. (See 225 order vs 470 Destruction).

As for engis, they're not bad, just not as desired as WLs, Slayers, and BWs. I've also seen much fewer SWs than the three previously mentioned classes. More than WHs and Engis though.

In regards to Forts, I agree with the posts above me. "Blob everything" works for keeps but not for forts, which is where Order actually has a chance to win anything in RvR.

[lyncher12]

Why can destro win keeps but not forts?
Because destro can only zerg and gank, which works for keeps but not for forts.
If destro was really weaker, they wouldn't make it to forts in the first place and Order would be in IC 24/7, see: Underpowered Order at the start of the year.
That's all.

"can only zerg and gank" and yet order farms the majority of their invaders/royals from defense because they get farmed in city.
sound logic

[Sundowner]

They keep buffing order side, the SW does crazy aoe now and I believe they fixed dragons gun on w/h , 2 more classes to stack aoe with the engi's and b/w. With nothing for destro side, mara aoe nerfed, choppa aoe nerfed. Yes it is a team game and composition is vital to wins/ loss. I think they are doing what they can to try and level out the matching with forts. Order just has better aoe atm. Prove me wrong ?

Mara aoe was not nerfed, it was fixed, in aoe, with the same tools available as to wl, mara's stat modifiers shouldn't have been better to begin with.

Choppa aoe was not nerfed in fort situations- GTDC does little in fort, where there a lot of people in tight space, where in forts and oRVR undefendable pull was a thing.

Yes, order has better aoe now (especially ranged), but destro has more cc which is benefitial in other situations. I think we should strive for balance in both categories.

[oneangryflamer]

You can add another embarassing fort defence by us destro....

[diedrake]

Destro has numbers a lot in the rvr regular lakes. Seen it many times destro has 2x numbers and cant take the keep so 5 star the zone instead. Or destro gets even more bodies to take a keep.

Order, at least the timezone i play in rn has fewer players. In order to combat numbers of destro, we run premade wbs with disc. The other day in praag destro had 3 wbs just to take ours out because 2 wbs wasnt enough.

Order has had to get really organized, play the classes to combat destro. In the lakes its a lot of melee and aoe type spec classes such as aoe bw. When forts come destro has a hard time due to two factors.

Destro cant throw 2 to 3x the number of defenders to take forts

And destro doesnt have much organization because having 2 to 3x numbers in lakes, destro players arent needing to organize a lot.

When it comes to forts, it takes organization, the proper classes and specs. Oh and being minimum lvl 40s. Cant tell how many times i have seen 2h spec tanks, single tgt spec magus and sorcs, not to mention low lvls trying to take order forts. Some of the pushes i have seen destro have made seems a little weak.

Also when it comes to fort pushes. Average time it takes destro to push is 7 to as much as 15 mins. 3 pushes normally before destro gives up. The first one is usally decent, have it a dry push, or a regular push. 2nd is usually the strongest. And third is laughable.

It seems only thing destro can do to take a fort is trying for 2 forts at the same time. Even then its a 50/50 shot as if order is on point and zones in at certain times, order can win.


What i am getting at is the reason why order is really good at defence is because we have to be due to lower numbers. Lower numbers create organizing, organizing comes way better win rate when it comes to forts, and bringing proper speced classes.

[Valantine]

I agree that some of the logic in this thread doesn't hold. It's definitely not an "Order is OP!" issue, because the city results (Destro often winning overall city score) contradicts that notion.

I was in Forts that went down to Destro earlier this week, and it was because the organized Destro guilds were on and pushing into the Fort like you need to push to break the defenders. Its about organization and strategy.

The old days of pushing Forts with sheer numbers are over.

[diedrake]

I happy to hear that destro is getting organized for forts its way better then blaming xy. Or z class.

[ChicagoJoe]

They keep buffing order side, the SW does crazy aoe now and I believe they fixed dragons gun on w/h , 2 more classes to stack aoe with the engi's and b/w. With nothing for destro side, mara aoe nerfed, choppa aoe nerfed. Yes it is a team game and composition is vital to wins/ loss. I think they are doing what they can to try and level out the matching with forts. Order just has better aoe atm. Prove me wrong ?

You may want to check your facts. A lot (read most) of the ranged AOE doesn't stack with either side. Only things that mostly stack is melee aoe, which destro has plenty of.

Destro is optimizing warbands for city dominance. This doesn't work well in every situation. Melee heals don't work well in fortress takes, because you can't make it inside to start lifetap heals. Almost no one in destro is pulling with magus anymore. If destro had 2-3 more magus pulling with fortresses you could easily disrupt the order tank walls.