Mighty Soul Removed?!

[hammerhead]

And the whole point of the topic is an attempt to return the opportunity to avoid investing in one of the stat, for completely far-fetched reasons.

I just want knights to have a viable offensive build in-line of literally every other tank in the game IF the player chooses to spec for it (for whatever niche role he/she feels like doing). Now, whether that is through returning MS, increasing baseline dmg modifiers on abilities, returning runefang to its proper form, changing more abilities to ele dmg, adding new mechanics to abilities, or some combination of the above is all up to the dev team.

In all honesty, I would like that too. And I also wanted a bit of AoE for my IB. Actually, Runefang became a victim of the fact that its combination with OYG made the class indecently strong one on one. And how it was decided to fix it was wrong because it launched his mirror, which already had good potential, into the stratosphere. If you look at the picture as a whole, then the decision is correct even though you have become a sacrificial sheep.
And I don't think/hope and believe that everything is in its final phase.

[Zxul]

to have ST damage to the face at the level of a well dressed WE. Is everything okay? Confuses nothing?

As someone who has both chosen and WE. Just to clarify, are you saying that you honestly believe that a chosen can do same dmg as WE?

[Uchoo]

Cool. You posted you getting beat by a Chosen 1v1. Cherry-picked screenshot with no context. What gear/spec were you each in? Did you armor debuff? Should we balance the game around 1v1? Should we teach you to spec the regen build that loses to nothing 1v1? Get some armor pen, use your armor debuff, use your DOUBLE armor debuff and burst? These are my initial questions.

You posted a screenie where a knight beat you in protection in city. Yet it's fairly well known that Oathbound by itself on a MDPS very consistently gives IB's highest protection and it's kinda busted for the stat on the scoreboard.

Maybe you should try those things?

[Uchoo]

I really don't know what to say to you anymore. We're not trying to get the game balanced for 1v1. We're trying to get Knight damage slightly buffed and maybe give them an avoidance buff; maybe rework a couple of tactics.

We've posted the damage of every tank besides SM in a variety of gear. I've provided math proofs on how to beat armor for those of you who aren't. They even just put in target dummies with armor, FS3 and a TTK lmao. This will only further my evidence as IB has the highest raw DPS with the dot-stacking too.

Let me say this one more time and see if it sinks in, we are trying to get Knight damage slightly buffed so they aren't unreasonably behind every other tank in the game. Some tanks are doing 1.5x-2x a Knight's damage. The Spirit Damage tanks deal spirit damage and are strong in 1v1's against tanks, both realms have one. IB's are probably doing 3x the damage of a Knight due to dot-stacking.

[Uchoo]

Other tanks have crit tactics for their own benefit, knights have similar tactics for the entire realm/warband/party to use and abuse.

I feel like the more knights cry foul play over their dps abilities without trying to understand the class, the more likely the gap will be brought closer by nerfing the other tanks damage capabilities. Mighty Soul wasn't even originally applied to any abilities outside the Path of Glory tree.

BG's have Crimson Death. It makes targets 10% more likely to be crit. It hits hard. The effect is applied even if the ability is defended.

BG's have a tactic with a Wounds debuff bigger than Knight's Arcing Swing that applies whenever they crit someone and cannot be cleansed.

BG's ALSO get a crit chance tactic. In fact, Knights are the only 2H tank that don't get a crit chance tactic and some form of parry from tactics/abilities. Of course you know this since you are such a self-proclaimed master of Warhammer and just trying to bring justice to everyone who is simply "crying" (Anyone who uses the word crying in their post loses about 10 points immediately).

The only unique utility that Knight brings is an aoe mez that is sometimes useful, the Magus/Engi aoe mez is longer and therefore better; They have a resist aura which is replaceable with a SM/Borc in most situations; They have Focused Mending, 15% free healing. This isn't mirrored on anywhere else in the game and is the core part of a Knight.

Like 2h BG, they bring a wounds debuff and 10% crit debuff aoe. These are huge and important.

Nothing that I have just said is a reductivist argument.

You can PayPal me 20 dollars for this lesson. Please learn the game before you post more stuff.

[Detangler]

Seems the consensus for knight players is that MS was a niche build at best with some serious downsides that literally no one complained about being OP.

Great change devs.

From the Chosen side: Dev reasoning was that 2H Chosen did too much damage with this tactic.
Here is why their reasoning is so wrong it boggles the mind.

Discordant Winds was only somewhat usable, as the main damage abilities (Ravage, Touch of Palsy, Relentless w/ tactic) already did spirit damage. 2H chosen had no real reason to ever run DW as they already had better options for spirit damage and could safely ignore weaponskill. The other non-spirit based abilities were used for utility and not used in damage rotations. The spirit based damage abilities won't be missed by 2H chosens.

What did DW give?

Auto attack damage is spirit based - who is complaining about auto attack damage? Really?

Spirit based unblockable spam attack in Cleave. Yes, 2h Chosen could abuse this, but lose out on 15% crit. And you are harder to keep alive with the 20% heal debuff. Explain how this would this be useful in oRvR? Why are you attacking the tanks and not the squishies? Its been said many times that this game is not balanced around solo play.

Chosens will go right back to doing the exact same damage as before DW was removed, doing the exact same big damage numbers that were the "justification" for this change. Knights just got run over cause they were nearby.

Great change devs. Really well thought out.

it has been stated many times that chosens were doing too much dmg when roaming solo/1v1/etc., wb balance was virtually not affected by this change. Yes, primary reason for most changes is oRVR/wb play balance, but this does not mean to leave solo op heroes as they are.

Yes, knight was no op and was affected only because chosen was nerfed, but if other tanks bring more dmg when solo roaming, knight still has more utility. Not every class is designed to be competitive solo roamer or do decent solo dmg, balance is made by trade-offs, between damage, utility, surviveability, mobility, etc.

Did you not read anything I typed? This change barely made a dent in 2h Chosen damage potential. You're still gonna see the exact same numbers from Ravage and Relentless spam. It just brought down autoattack damage (lol) and the utility attacks (Suppression, tooth of tzeentch, etc.) to use physical mitigation, but 2h Chosen will run with a 15% crit rate increase tactic instead.

[Detangler]

it has been stated many times that chosens were doing too much dmg when roaming solo/1v1/etc., wb balance was virtually not affected by this change. Yes, primary reason for most changes is oRVR/wb play balance, but this does not mean to leave solo op heroes as they are.

Yes, knight was no op and was affected only because chosen was nerfed, but if other tanks bring more dmg when solo roaming, knight still has more utility. Not every class is designed to be competitive solo roamer or do decent solo dmg, balance is made by trade-offs, between damage, utility, surviveability, mobility, etc.

25% parry 100% uptime for 2h Chosen. Only sword/board can get the 5 sec 25% stackable specable parry buff tactic, and only if they block an attack. It doesn't proc as much in real 1v1 fights as much as people think, especially v 2H enemies and their hidden 10% block bypass. Chosen also has no way to increase base blocking besides renown and gear, unlike other tanks.

[Uchoo]

Did you not read anything I typed? This change barely made a dent in 2h Chosen damage potential. You're still gonna see the exact same numbers from Ravage and Relentless spam. It just brought down autoattack damage (lol) and the utility attacks (Suppression, tooth of tzeentch, etc.) to use physical mitigation, but 2h Chosen will run with a 15% crit rate increase tactic instead.

This is correct, Chosen were hardly affected by the change while Knights were hurt greatly.

[hammerhead]

Cool. You posted you getting beat by a Chosen 1v1. Cherry-picked screenshot with no context. What gear/spec were you each in? Did you armor debuff? Should we balance the game around 1v1? Should we teach you to spec the regen build that loses to nothing 1v1? Get some armor pen, use your armor debuff, use your DOUBLE armor debuff and burst? These are my initial questions.

You posted a screenie where a knight beat you in protection in city. Yet it's fairly well known that Oathbound by itself on a MDPS very consistently gives IB's highest protection and it's kinda busted for the stat on the scoreboard.

Maybe you should try those things?

So far, you have strictly mathematically proven only that different skills have different base damage, which, in the absence of resists / armor, draws funny multi-colored parallel lines.
It's strange to read about the 1 on 1 balance when even Wargrimnir said that MS was a niche build, so when you play enough with a dummy you can of course show what your ib is capable of on a relay tank with 5.2-5.4k armor and 600-700 tough, which it’s a common thing for any chozen.

[hammerhead]

to have ST damage to the face at the level of a well dressed WE. Is everything okay? Confuses nothing?

As someone who has both chosen and WE. Just to clarify, are you saying that you honestly believe that a chosen can do same dmg as WE?

When non tank hit by 1-1.2k which AA ? Sure.