Anatomy of a Failed Patch

[Roarik188]

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Anatomy of a whine post.

TB is fine and it was also fine in Live. Only bad players kept whining about it back in live and it is the same deal here. Spending 45 RPs on renown trainer for %40 crit dmg reduction is not even a good investment at all considering your renown points is limited to 80.

Engi and magus were clearly overperforming and %20 reduction on pet buff is a good change that brought them to where they supposed to be. So it is not the patch that failed but your expectations. You would get used to it. Just give it some time.
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This of the epitome of "I got mine, fk you" the post. I'm sure you have RR80+ characters. More noob stomping shall continue, more noob stomping is good for the game, I'm sure. As people like you continue to laugh, people will take note of this. TB hurts the entire game, but more importantly, it hurts new players. I'm sure your answer is simply "get gid scrub", which is fine you are welcome to your poor opinions.

TB was bad on live, it was bad FOR live, and it is bad now. Your personal prejudice and opinions wont change that.

[M0rw47h]

I agree that TB makes RR80 more powerful compared to lowbies.
However, TB also makes character with at least RR45 living longer if they go for TB themselves, as they usualy have lower initiative and less -% chance to be crit on gear, thus TB gives them more than lets say guy with 300 initiative, gunbad diamond and other -2% CtbC on gear.

[engharat]

OP I think you totaly miss the point of "fix".
Engineer population is too big, most of them don't even group or do anything revelant for campaign or organized smallscale (at best they group with other engis) they just hide on top of some hill or wall skipping entire drawback of "low mobility" and pew pew. Personaly I find it very good change, as it doesn't really matter much for any form of organized play where you've to be mobile anyway, unless fighting pugs.

Do you recognize that this is the wrong solution to a good problem (too many engies)? In order to fix overpopulation of engies, the same nerf hit an underpopulated class (magus) which, together with TB (sorc nerf), will detroy the magical destro pop.

[M0rw47h]

OP I think you totaly miss the point of "fix".
Engineer population is too big, most of them don't even group or do anything revelant for campaign or organized smallscale (at best they group with other engis) they just hide on top of some hill or wall skipping entire drawback of "low mobility" and pew pew. Personaly I find it very good change, as it doesn't really matter much for any form of organized play where you've to be mobile anyway, unless fighting pugs.

Do you recognize that this is the wrong solution to a good problem (too many engies)? In order to fix overpopulation of engies, the same nerf hit an underpopulated class (magus) which, together with TB (sorc nerf), will detroy the magical destro pop.

I think Magus will do fine, I've heard you still crit BoC for ~3k on targets with TB (instead of ~4k), and you shouldn't assume everyone will suddenly use TB (like many people haven't already used FS, and this is "more expensive" as it requires you to go for all four ranks to be efficient).
While it may not be "the best solution" it also opens possibilities of smaller buffs or tweaks for Engi/Magus for future with reduced impact of turrets on their gameplay.

[Gargis]

A counter point would be, and not specific to engineers is the amount of magic damage thrown around in this game.

When a tic of mist hits a tank for 400+ on a tank with 800 toughness and max resists or a WOP hits a tank for 2000+ its beyond the pale. A s/b tank spec full defensive might hit back for 100, perhaps more. Now throw in numerous casters and and its easy to see that how excessive that is even with cleanses.

I do not care how they do it, just that its done. Review each ability or take the TB approach. Magic damage needed to be curtailed.

Coupled with the capacity to bypass avoidance with strike through and high offensive stats, spending 40 points in block and dodge/disrupt has become tenuous. I for one will no longer stay in this game if that kind of disparity continues to exist.

[engharat]

OP I think you totaly miss the point of "fix".
Engineer population is too big, most of them don't even group or do anything revelant for campaign or organized smallscale (at best they group with other engis) they just hide on top of some hill or wall skipping entire drawback of "low mobility" and pew pew. Personaly I find it very good change, as it doesn't really matter much for any form of organized play where you've to be mobile anyway, unless fighting pugs.

Do you recognize that this is the wrong solution to a good problem (too many engies)? In order to fix overpopulation of engies, the same nerf hit an underpopulated class (magus) which, together with TB (sorc nerf), will detroy the magical destro pop.

I think Magus will do fine, I've heard you still crit BoC for ~3k on targets with TB (instead of ~4k), and you shouldn't assume everyone will suddenly use TB (like many people haven't already used FS, and this is "more expensive" as it requires you to go for all four ranks to be efficient).
While it may not be "the best solution" it also opens possibilities of smaller buffs or tweaks for Engi/Magus for future with reduced impact of turrets on their gameplay.

They were fine before, I get killed often by engies and I always found it fine, they kill when the enemy does not care any attention to them.would someone say "WH OP" if they would stand still while WH attacks him? and it is easier to escape from engi attack then from WH attack.
Said that, if you find find fine a reduction in dmg from 4k to 3k, would you be fine with a 20% dmg reduction for slayers, or WL, or choppa, or whatever? there would be huge complaints everywhere.

[Caduceus]

When a tic of mist hits a tank for 400+ on a tank with 800 toughness and max resists or a WOP hits a tank for 2000+ its beyond the pale. A s/b tank spec full defensive might hit back for 100, perhaps more. Now throw in numerous casters and and its easy to see that how excessive that is even with cleanses.

What world do you live in where Sorcs cast WoP on tanks?

A counter point would be, and not specific to engineers is the amount of magic damage thrown around in this game.


Magic damage needed to be curtailed.

How do you explain that magic users fall far behind in any competitive setting compared to melee dps like Slayer/Mara/Choppa?

[Jastojan]

OP I think you totaly miss the point of "fix".
Engineer population is too big, most of them don't even group or do anything revelant for campaign or organized smallscale (at best they group with other engis) they just hide on top of some hill or wall skipping entire drawback of "low mobility" and pew pew. Personaly I find it very good change, as it doesn't really matter much for any form of organized play where you've to be mobile anyway, unless fighting pugs.

You wrote it doesn't really matter much for any form of organized play - so I REALY do not understand why do you advocate this changes? If it does not affect you and your gameplay anyway, so why? There is a group of people whose gameplay was affected by a lot, but somehow you need to keep them down and it seems you are happy that they cant enjoy it anymore. Every game is much better when you have more options to play it, the variousness, but here it is going to be reduced step by step and is going to force you to play it THIS way (which I find it brings less and less fun). But you said that the MAIN way of gameplay (organized WB) is not affected by these changes, so what was the point of that nerf? Just to reduce variousness of gameplay? Or what?

It's very good question.
Fact that it's not nerf for warband play, doesn't change core of the problem, where you get hordes of solo Engineers and Maguses.
If solo sniping is too effective, too much "fun" and appealing to masses it causes few following problems for entire realm on various levels:

• You get players who don't want to group on regular basis, as they don't need to [except leeching City Siege];
• ^You've too much rDPS compared to mDPS for realm X, which attracted more of those players [hello Order?];
• ^Since they have only "sniper" experience, 95% of them is totaly useless in warband play [City Siege], they don't know how to spec or play;
• ^Unbalanced population, more soloQ instances for order, more free wins for destro in City Siege and so on...

Generaly it's a PvP MMO. Not a solo sniping simulator. Classes should be designed so you want to group, always.
If DPS Shaman was overperforming as solo class, I don't see problems to nerf for same reason solo wall shooters. In a group with assist you still will kill people, despite small loss of dmg and Trivial Blows reducing your burst.

While I still hate rSH range changes, probably the approach of lower range = more damage and burst was right direction to go, as higher risk should give you higher rewards. There is no risk in shooting at people who can't match your range from top of a mountain (so many Bitterstone spots got fixed for a reason) or a oil spot.

"Generaly it's a PvP MMO. Not a solo sniping simulator. Classes should be designed so you want to group, always." There is a problem, single target spec does not have to mean solo gameplay. It looks like solo gameplay was expected and planed part of the game right from the beginning (WH/WE is a good example - AM/shaman as dps too). And the biggest disadvantage of soloers is the fact they are solo. To be solo is huge disadvatnage on its own, so why to punish it even more? To be in WB and die against solo player is not the fault of game design in this game. Lets take a look on WH and WE - solo gankig classes, which are designed for this purpose. They are mainly soloers or gankers, you can see WH squads ganking everywhere. Same was with engies. I do not take the reasoning for this nerf as you descibed it (it is my problem, I know) - but yes it has a logic and it looks like devs are tuning the game the way you descibed, you are right it seems. It is like I wrote - players are forced to play in Warbands, but it looks like there is something more. Players are forced to play in warbands AND if they want to get in to WB they should forget some specs or the whole classes, so why do we have so many mastery trees here? ST specs are not popular by devs it seems, because all in all we could see that the only wanted way of gameplay is - massive aoe battles. IT started with 24 aoe cap and it goes even further. ST specs based on crits are getting unpopular.

[Onigokko0101]

OP I think you totaly miss the point of "fix".
Engineer population is too big, most of them don't even group or do anything revelant for campaign or organized smallscale (at best they group with other engis) they just hide on top of some hill or wall skipping entire drawback of "low mobility" and pew pew. Personaly I find it very good change, as it doesn't really matter much for any form of organized play where you've to be mobile anyway, unless fighting pugs.

Yup. In any competitive content it really dosent matter. Its a change that only affects stationary players that sit on a wall and wait for people to run by.

Been playing my Magus after this patch and it feels fine, even when running the BoC ST build, because I am normally not sitting inside my keep waiting for a siege.

That said: We really didnt need TB. All the tests that I have seen run seem to indicate that its going to basically replace FS because the difference in damage totals is about the same, but go figure TB is way less spiky- and spike damage is what kills people.

[havartii]

The patch that reduced armor only killed AM and Sham so only a few pages of cries (mostly mine). And now 4 more classes, BW,Sorc ,Engi, Magus, get a bit of a nerf. Seems like a lot of changes in a very short time? I thought they were going to make realm captains? Is there some kind of road map? Or is this all just random? I really don't understand the direction they are going or what they are trying to achieve over all. It seems like they are just making a lot of players mad/sad.