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Patch Notes 20/11/2021

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Sulorie
Posts: 5873

Re: Patch Notes 20/11/2021

Post#71 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:09 pm

Omegus wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:13 pm
Additionally, Immolating Grasp cannot be cleansed by anyone (I'm not sure if the snare proc can be cleansed).

I'd rather have more differentation between the channelled abilities, not less, based on what other tools the class has.
Sure, some more channel effects would be nice. At least magus has some AP return, if you kill target but I don't think this has to be one-sided. Changing one of them much feels odd to me, well that's an opinion not everyone has to share.

IMO uncleansable snares should stay on morals, not regular skills in combination with tactics. The tactic should add a buff towards the skill, which itself could be removable.
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BluIzLucky
Posts: 251

Re: Patch Notes 20/11/2021

Post#72 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:44 pm

Sulorie wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:01 pm
BluIzLucky wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:35 pm
anarchypark wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:18 pm
magus firstorm is ground aoe snare casting on the move.
Oh yeah.. same spot too.. woopsie poopsie Sulorie.. back to the drawing board, it is YOU who don't understand the bigger picture :D
I intentionally didn't mention 6sec 80ft AOE channels, because their effect is different and shouldn't be compared.
But nice that you discover arguments in posts of others, albeit it doesn't matter for this argument. :^)
Will refer you to my previous post for the serious reply (which I guess you missed) and not that silly one (and it's good to learn and be open to the points of others) :)

Also, AoE or not it's a 6s channel with 2s ticks, you can say that's an irrelevant separate category and I can say that's a very relevant example of yet another way channels are different and pretty much only thing they have in common is being interruptible.

Guess it boils down to this..
My argument is; this is a weak channel that got a small buff, it's no problem.
Yours seem to be; It doesn't follow the rules of subcategory of "6s 100f single target magic channels".

Maybe you can just give me a more convincing argument that this will be bad for balance other than magus/sorc/bw doesn't get to cotm theirs?
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anarchypark
Posts: 1914

Re: Patch Notes 20/11/2021

Post#73 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:15 pm

Everdin wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:05 pm
anarchypark wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:26 pm
CyunUnderis wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:51 pm


To be more precise, I think this is because of the flammer that allow Changing skills to be cast while moving. Not because of the skill itself.

at some point it's changed to skill itself i think. same time as reduced to 20% snare? were they 30%? not sure.
i tested without pet and it was castable on the move.
and dev note said engie version was not doable cuz skill effect.
that small artillery gun can't move around. i do remember that part.
There is only mentioned that snare is reduced, so destro now has 2 channel snare on the move (one aoe one st) and for order pendants (that are pretty much the same skills) it is for the first reason "just not possible because of the effect of the skill" and for the other it was prefered not to mentioned it at all?

If engi version is not working with the stupid mini artillery (can't find the source btw so no idea if true), remove the effect just make it work, thats pretty much a "We just don't want engi to have the same"-excuse.
And why again should rp not getting same effect?

"You channel a powerful series of runes around your target which project searing flame into them, dealing 1365 Elemental damage over 6 seconds and snaring them by 40% for as long as you maintain your concentration."
"You call forth a storm of ravens which claw and peck at your target, dealing 1323 Corporeal damage over 6 seconds and snaring them by 40%. for as long as you maintain your concentration."

please, don't tell me it's the 42dmg...

iirc, it was technical issue. i wouldn't call anything stupid that i don't know. it makes YOU stupid.
magus firestorm is "fun" skill. most useful way is defensive. running from angry mobs which is high chance of fail cuz of 20%
and cool effect distract noobs.

this zealot buff seems offensive use.
rp/zeal are famous for staggering dismount at roaming.
and ppl say rp has another snares. pretty good cc classes they are.
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS5, BW5, WP8, WH7, IB7, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG7, Sorc6, DoK8, WE7, Chs7, Mg7, Ze6, Mara6, BO4, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

Everdin
Posts: 120

Re: Patch Notes 20/11/2021

Post#74 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:31 pm

anarchypark wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:15 pm
Everdin wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:05 pm
anarchypark wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:26 pm



at some point it's changed to skill itself i think. same time as reduced to 20% snare? were they 30%? not sure.
i tested without pet and it was castable on the move.
and dev note said engie version was not doable cuz skill effect.
that small artillery gun can't move around. i do remember that part.
There is only mentioned that snare is reduced, so destro now has 2 channel snare on the move (one aoe one st) and for order pendants (that are pretty much the same skills) it is for the first reason "just not possible because of the effect of the skill" and for the other it was prefered not to mentioned it at all?

If engi version is not working with the stupid mini artillery (can't find the source btw so no idea if true), remove the effect just make it work, thats pretty much a "We just don't want engi to have the same"-excuse.
And why again should rp not getting same effect?

"You channel a powerful series of runes around your target which project searing flame into them, dealing 1365 Elemental damage over 6 seconds and snaring them by 40% for as long as you maintain your concentration."
"You call forth a storm of ravens which claw and peck at your target, dealing 1323 Corporeal damage over 6 seconds and snaring them by 40%. for as long as you maintain your concentration."

please, don't tell me it's the 42dmg...

iirc, it was technical issue. i wouldn't call anything stupid that i don't know. it makes YOU stupid.
magus firestorm is "fun" skill. most useful way is defensive. running from angry mobs which is high chance of fail cuz of 20%
and cool effect distract noobs.

this zealot buff seems offensive use.
rp/zeal are famous for staggering dismount at roaming.
and ppl say rp has another snares. pretty good cc classes they are.
Not calling stupid things stupid is stupid :D. If you let someone build your house and the builder makes your frontdoor in 5ft height without steps or ladder, you would say the door is stupid, not matter if the builder is offended that you say that.

If the devs wanted to make the abilities work the same and a visual effect is hindering it to work as the devs want, the effect is stupid (or if you feel better: unnecessary).
#AllClassesMatter

anarchypark
Posts: 1914

Re: Patch Notes 20/11/2021

Post#75 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:52 pm

Everdin wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:31 pm

Not calling stupid things stupid is stupid :D. If you let someone build your house and the builder makes your frontdoor in 5ft height without steps or ladder, you would say the door is stupid, not matter if the builder is offended that you say that.

If the devs wanted to make the abilities work the same and a visual effect is hindering it to work as the devs want, the effect is stupid (or if you feel better: unnecessary).

so how much did you pay for that door? i would ask refund and do it myself.
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS5, BW5, WP8, WH7, IB7, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG7, Sorc6, DoK8, WE7, Chs7, Mg7, Ze6, Mara6, BO4, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

Everdin
Posts: 120

Re: Patch Notes 20/11/2021

Post#76 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:28 pm

anarchypark wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:52 pm
Everdin wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:31 pm

Not calling stupid things stupid is stupid :D. If you let someone build your house and the builder makes your frontdoor in 5ft height without steps or ladder, you would say the door is stupid, not matter if the builder is offended that you say that.

If the devs wanted to make the abilities work the same and a visual effect is hindering it to work as the devs want, the effect is stupid (or if you feel better: unnecessary).

so how much did you pay for that door? i would ask refund and do it myself.
why not keep it? maybe because it's stupid?
#AllClassesMatter

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Grock
Posts: 860

Re: Patch Notes 20/11/2021

Post#77 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:53 am

BluIzLucky wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:30 am
The snare attached to a channel is a strictly worse snare than other ranged classes with instant cast 10s snares and they have channel on the move abilities too.
So what exactly makes this unbalanced?
Can you provide some examples?

BW/Sorc, AM/Sham, SW/SH are all stationary, BW's only snare is Withering Heat stationary channel, Sorc one is 2s hardcast, SW/SH are 1s cast on the move but only 65ft range, Engi/Magus channels are stationary and their only snare is melee attack.

Caduceus wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:52 pm
Zealot DPS spec is lacklustre at best, so I think there's room for giving them something like this without breaking anything balance-wise.

Not sure what your point is. That classes shouldn't have things that make them stand out? Many classes have such things and again, I think that is a positive thing.

Or is your point that a channeled snare castable on the move would be overpowered? I also find this hard to imagine. The Runepriest gets access to a 100ft snare as well through Immolating Grasp, and it is a very powerful kiting tool that cannot be interrupted like a channel can be, and the RP can also cast other spells while the snare ticks.
DPS Zealot issue is poor damage output (including, as was already discussed SoR tick damage being bugged) and lack of fun dps rotation/mechanic, but not utility.
Such change wouldn't help dps spec outside of solo roaming/ganking, but will add powerul new kiting/catching utility o already powerful healer Zealot in group play, all while Zealot already has similar mechanic with instant 100ft Stagger

While RP has immolating grasp you have to recognize that its a chance proc off of a damage over time ability, and the first tick comes 3 seconds after application, with only 25% proc chance, it is extremely unreliable, whereas the new channel is guaranteed on-demand 100ft Snare.

Try to look at it from a larger perspective rather than just "its a bad ability that got buffed". Because that abiltiy was bad for different reasons entirely and this change doesn't address it in any way.

CyunUnderis wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:51 pm
anarchypark wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:18 pm
magus firstorm is ground aoe snare casting on the move.
To be more precise, I think this is because of the flammer that allow Changing skills to be cast while moving. Not because of the skill itself.
Engi's mirror isn't castable on the move, turret or not. Am i the only one noticing a trend here? :lol:
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Caduceus
Posts: 463

Re: Patch Notes 20/11/2021

Post#78 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:42 am

Grock wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:53 am

DPS Zealot issue is poor damage output (including, as was already discussed SoR tick damage being bugged) and lack of fun dps rotation/mechanic, but not utility.
Such change wouldn't help dps spec outside of solo roaming/ganking, but will add powerul new kiting/catching utility o already powerful healer Zealot in group play, all while Zealot already has similar mechanic with instant 100ft Stagger

Just like Runepriest. I still do not see an issue here. Besides, it also requires an investment in the middle tree which not every Zealot will want to make. It's a trade-off.

Grock wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:53 am

While RP has immolating grasp you have to recognize that its a chance proc off of a damage over time ability, and the first tick comes 3 seconds after application, with only 25% proc chance, it is extremely unreliable, whereas the new channel is guaranteed on-demand 100ft Snare.

Immolating Grasp can proc on application of Rune of Immolation and every subsequent tick. And while the Zealot's snare has to be channeled, has a cooldown and can be interrupted, Rune of Immolation does not suffer those drawbacks. Rune of Immolation can even be kept up on multiple targets at once. Further, Rune of Immolation lasts 15 seconds, whereas Storm of Ravens only lasts 6.

Weighing the pros and cons of both abilities, I don't see an argument for why Storm of Ravens being castable on the move is problematic.

Even with the buff I think Runepriest gets the better deal of the two.
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Sulorie
Posts: 5873

Re: Patch Notes 20/11/2021

Post#79 » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:23 pm

Caduceus wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:42 am
Grock wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:53 am

DPS Zealot issue is poor damage output (including, as was already discussed SoR tick damage being bugged) and lack of fun dps rotation/mechanic, but not utility.
Such change wouldn't help dps spec outside of solo roaming/ganking, but will add powerul new kiting/catching utility o already powerful healer Zealot in group play, all while Zealot already has similar mechanic with instant 100ft Stagger

Just like Runepriest. I still do not see an issue here. Besides, it also requires an investment in the middle tree which not every Zealot will want to make. It's a trade-off.

Grock wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:53 am

While RP has immolating grasp you have to recognize that its a chance proc off of a damage over time ability, and the first tick comes 3 seconds after application, with only 25% proc chance, it is extremely unreliable, whereas the new channel is guaranteed on-demand 100ft Snare.

Immolating Grasp can proc on application of Rune of Immolation and every subsequent tick. And while the Zealot's snare has to be channeled, has a cooldown and can be interrupted, Rune of Immolation does not suffer those drawbacks. Rune of Immolation can even be kept up on multiple targets at once. Further, Rune of Immolation lasts 15 seconds, whereas Storm of Ravens only lasts 6.

Weighing the pros and cons of both abilities, I don't see an argument for why Storm of Ravens being castable on the move is problematic.

Even with the buff I think Runepriest gets the better deal of the two.
It costs a valuable tactic slot and you already have too many nice tactics.
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Grock
Posts: 860

Re: Patch Notes 20/11/2021

Post#80 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:39 am

Caduceus wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:42 am
Immolating Grasp can proc on application of Rune of Immolation and every subsequent tick. And while the Zealot's snare has to be channeled, has a cooldown and can be interrupted, Rune of Immolation does not suffer those drawbacks. Rune of Immolation can even be kept up on multiple targets at once. Further, Rune of Immolation lasts 15 seconds, whereas Storm of Ravens only lasts 6.

Weighing the pros and cons of both abilities, I don't see an argument for why Storm of Ravens being castable on the move is problematic.

Even with the buff I think Runepriest gets the better deal of the two.
If it really procs on application then yeah its a lot better of course, but its still chance based proc vs guaranteed effect, for the purposes of catching a fleeing opponent the guaranteed one is much better, on top of that DoT application shouldn't have a chance to dismount while channeled direct damage should.

My point isnt Zealot VS Runepriest, its the general concept of reliable on demand 100ft ranged Snare, especially on a character that already has similar utility. My critisicm applies both to Zealot and Runepriest if the effects are mirrored. And i wouldn't say that Immolating Grasp is fine either, instant 100ft cast with potential of up to 100% uptime snare and an AP drain on top? Bruh :?

I'd rather see both of them just being able to do real damage.

My perspective is ORvR roaming/ganking and being melee player with zero ways to engage the enemy at range.
Range vs melee balance/design is alreay pretty poor in WAR, its either endless kiting or steamroll in close range, neither of which are fun on the receiving end.
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