Any reason to play SW over BW or WL?

[TanithScout]

- Make Powerful Draw a core tactic, wich buff all ranged attacks (to match the one from the SH)

Squig herder tactic sharpened arrers do not affect all ranged attacks like you say, the actual version match squig herder version. Shadow warrior one increase 25% armor penetration in skirmish path and squig herder one increase 25% only in path of big shooting abilities not in the other paths.

You can check it yourself in carrer builder
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... uig-herder

If you wanna talk about one tactic which affects all abilities from all paths, you should speak about shadowarrior bullseye tactic which affect crit chance from all abilities and is core, while squig herder version Shootin wif da wind only increase crit chance in skirmish path abilities only and cost 12 specialization points.

Yes, the tactic that gives you 20% crit which is only meaningful on very few certain abilities due to the massive mitigation in game vs phys and meanwhile your opponent +10% crit chance against you aka gives your opponent couple levels free renown crit while giving you -2 levels of mandatory Futile Strikes. Good tactic. Huge payoff to hit for 100-150 more dmage on most irrelevant abilities. Lets be generous and say 200 more.

RSW is absolutely drowning in tactics and abilities. Too many to be even 'viable' dps which even then is debatatable, generally. And 0 room for flavour without heavily gimping yourself. I do this and have fun but I'm okay with it, fyi. Viable for me is to be taken in 6vx premade setup vs 6v6vx premade setup with all classes and tactic slots organized. Can narrow it to 6v6 spvp if that helps you. Example is SW rkd is its ini debuff for crit therefore mandatory for rotation for dps is 20s cd 10 with VoN vs RSH 5s and its a dot (important for skirmish/qs) AND crit increaser. Insane. RSW has higher base dmg is your counter? RSH has pet. And more powerful abilities that save gcd which is better dps output in the first place on top of listed goodies.

Meanwhile RSH has 1 tactic free auto detaunt for massive amounts of one-size-fits-all damage mitigation no downside and 1 tactic flat 15% crit AND 35% crit dmage for one entire playstyle, same playstyle you question this case is 95% of RSH builds, no downside. So 25% phys mitigation (of which I have no idea the interaction with weaponskill but actual dps increase is minimal, which isn't engaging) vs 15% crit and 35% crit damage + plus pet. I don't like to use strauight numbers comparison in RVR thigns can and should happen, but this is what we got. Its different but RSW has base 25% crit damage and pays for it with +25% AP costs on all abilities. Yes we can talk about this if you want, lets discuss isometic class balance as a rebuttal, or RSW vs RSH. So the 2 tactics mean RSW is better vs meds and tanks (lol???) through tactic mitigation flat phys, and RSH better and target squishier meds and clothies. But in practice it is absolutely not like this, and you know it. Crit+critdmg inherently more useful than 25% phys mitigation in game where phys mitigation already exponentionally massive due to perma armor pots on everyone.

TLDR Grass isn't always greener for both but conversely, RSH can save on tactic slots and GCD's as they have certain abilities amalgamated or straight up buffed over RSW in accordance with their *isometric balance*. The stat swing of these 3 tactics and abilities, when looked at the lab like this is undeniable however it doesn't necessarily pan out like this in RvR although imo these abilities and tactics when compared like this are a godo indicator you have no diea what you are talknig about.

Edit; I didn't address you on the Bigshhoting RSH. My apologies. In hindsight, I wodner why...
Not that SW is a bad class imo, it is viable for average play, which I enjoy. But in comparison tactic for tactic I think is a bad idea and my post above showswhy i think that, personally speaking.

[Omegus]

So 25% phys mitigation (of which I have no idea the interaction with weaponskill but actual dps increase is minimal, which isn't engaging)

25% increased armour penetration is equal to having 350 additional weapon skill (assuming rank 40 vs rank 40).

Crit+critdmg inherently more useful than 25% phys mitigation in game where phys mitigation already exponentionally massive due to perma armor pots on everyone.

Armour penetration counters more actual armour if the target has higher armour. If someone has 1000 armour and you have 50% armour penetration, then you are ignoring 500 armour. If someone has 4000 armour and you have 50% armour penetration then you are ignoring 2000 armour. Armour penetration is multiplicative with armour, not additive (or subtractive), so it scales up really well.

I have no idea if this actually helps the SW or not (not do I care), I'm just stepping in to correct some assumptions about how the stat works

[TanithScout]

So 25% phys mitigation (of which I have no idea the interaction with weaponskill but actual dps increase is minimal, which isn't engaging)

25% increased armour penetration is equal to having 350 additional weapon skill (assuming rank 40 vs rank 40).

Crit+critdmg inherently more useful than 25% phys mitigation in game where phys mitigation already exponentionally massive due to perma armor pots on everyone.

Armour penetration counters more actual armour if the target has higher armour. If someone has 1000 armour and you have 50% armour penetration, then you are ignoring 500 armour. If someone has 4000 armour and you have 50% armour penetration then you are ignoring 2000 armour. Armour penetration is multiplicative with armour, not additive (or subtractive), so it scales up really well.

I have no idea if this actually helps the SW or not (not do I care), I'm just stepping in to correct some assumptions about how the stat works

I was not making assumptions and admitted im no expert in the mechanics of where the calculations are applied. I admitted this, in your quote actually.

I was not aware how rpecisely the tactic worked, whether its before or afetr certain effects, where along in the calculation it is applied etc or if its just a flat +350 WS in terms of mechanics. In which case I think the tactic should be worded as +350 WS. Unless it works differently. I am aware of the amount the tactic gives is equal to 350 weapon skill as this is easily tested (IA, Assault stance, any WS set bonus and item is almost exactly the same as the tactic) and many SW's will be enjoying min/maxing their stats or tweaking their build, all of what is discussed here is shown in the character sheet. So there are no assumptions, as stated. All shadow warriors will see the effect of weapon skill versus the high phys mitigation in game once other effects commonly found in RvR are thrown into your combat log though. Its quite common to have over 100% of your damage negated if you cannot reach a suitable target and decide to watch numbers appear while clicking tanks or have to target the threat which is guarded. But you can also have this much mitigated on other classes such as clothies that are not guarded before detaunt. Because there is a high prevalence of phys mtiigation in game. Unlike sprit elemental or corp dmg which is much more reliable. My point is that between high phys mitigation and the other mechanics guard challange pots etc armour pen isnt worth as much as crit and crit damage and bullseye doesn't make up for it unless you are also guarded. RSH gets half a guard effect for free for no downside automatically. There are classes and situations where crit and crit damage is infinitely mroe useful when used with certain abilities, as mentioned in my previous post, than phys mitigation reduction. 'Infinitely' is hyperbole.

Acid arrow is one of our first abilities so we as SW's are familiar with its effect, especially at lower tiers where the effect is more noticeable, as who wouldn't want to buff their damage and this is exactly what the skill does. Once more debuffs are thrown in, the effect is less. As im sure you are aware, they do not stack. So while it 'scales up really well' on its own, once more players and buffs/debuffs are thrown intothe mix i.e. not a training dummy, the effect is somewhat lessened. I believe I compared the tangible ingame benefots of target suitabiliy when it comes to crit+crit damage and armour pen in my previous post. No assumptions presented as fact, just opinions that are open to discussion.

As I mentioned, you cannot argue with calculations. Or myself in this case since you called me out, but I prefer an empirical example of the classes and tactics in question. You, by admission, do not. Neither do you care.

[gitonstrugle]

Meanwhile RSH has 1 tactic free auto detaunt for massive amounts of one-size-fits-all damage mitigation no downside

That tactic was nerfed, not only the detaunt amount was lowered from 50% to 25% detaunt, they even gave you damage reduction by 25% during that detaunt effect... saying it has no downside is not true.

and 1 tactic flat 15% crit AND 35% crit dmage for one entire playstyle

Another time you wrong, the 15% crit chance only affects skirmish path and leaving out two abilities that you can see in combat log of those skirmish squigs that you say are 95% of the squigs... for example shrapnel arrer and finish em off are not affected by that 15%, because both abilities are part of big shooting path (50% of the instant abilities used by squigs are not affected by that 15% extra crit chance).
Respect to your statment that says 35% increased critical damage affects your ENTIRE playstyle, you are wrong other time because that 35% increased critical damage only affects two abilities (red tipped arrow 15 sec cooldown and behind ya 10 sec cooldown and only usable from behind) all other abiltiies out of those two are not affected by 35% increased critical

As i said from my test in armored dummies and everything i seen, the shadowarrior not only have higher base damage in all abilities, higher crit chance thanks to bullseye affecting all paths and way higher critical damage hits thanks to self permanent buff with increased crit damage in ALL abilities, they even add an extra tool like Vengeance which increase damage a 25% extra each 30 sec during 10 sec duration (1/3 uptime).
Looking at armored dummie test, the shadow warrior was doing more damage burst in 3 sec timestamp and way higher DPS in the full kill than a squig herder + pet which could barely come close when it used pet moral one.

[Omegus]

I was not aware how rpecisely the tactic worked, whether its before or afetr certain effects, where along in the calculation it is applied etc or if its just a flat +350 WS in terms of mechanics. In which case I think the tactic should be worded as +350 WS.

By listing it as a fixed percentage it means that that you get the full benefit regardless of whether you invest 11 points in that tree or 15. If it was a stat bonus then it has to scale based on rank and mastery rank like every other stat bonus, so you end up with either the rank 11 version being weaker than 350 or the rank 15 version being stronger than 350. Finally, weapon skill also grants a parry bonus which would be a bit odd on a mastery path for arrows.

"Armour penetration" all happens at the same time. The penetration from Weapon Skill, gear bonuses that give straight up +% armour penetration, abilities, tactics, are all combined together (following the stacking rules) to create a final armour penetration bonus. Subtracted from this is the attacher's reduced armour penetration stat. Then the final percentage is used to modify armour.

As for which stacking group the tactic is in: god knows, very difficulty to tell without testing. That would apply regardless of whether it was 25% armour penetration or 350 weapon skill as both are only being applied to specific abilities so wouldn't show up on the character sheet or .getstats.

[TanithScout]

Meanwhile RSH has 1 tactic free auto detaunt for massive amounts of one-size-fits-all damage mitigation no downside

That tactic was nerfed, not only the detaunt amount was lowered from 50% to 25% detaunt, they even gave you damage reduction by 25% during that detaunt effect... saying it has no downside is not true.

and 1 tactic flat 15% crit AND 35% crit dmage for one entire playstyle

Another time you wrong, the 15% crit chance only affects skirmish path and leaving out two abilities that you can see in combat log of those skirmish squigs that you say are 95% of the squigs... for example shrapnel arrer and finish em off are not affected by that 15%, because both abilities are part of big shooting path (50% of the instant abilities used by squigs are not affected by that 15% extra crit chance).
Respect to your statment that says 35% increased critical damage affects your ENTIRE playstyle, you are wrong other time because that 35% increased critical damage only affects two abilities (red tipped arrow 15 sec cooldown and behind ya 10 sec cooldown and only usable from behind) all other abiltiies out of those two are not affected by 35% increased critical

As i said from my test in armored dummies and everything i seen, the shadowarrior not only have higher base damage in all abilities, higher crit chance thanks to bullseye affecting all paths and way higher critical damage hits thanks to self permanent buff with increased crit damage in ALL abilities, they even add an extra tool like Vengeance which increase damage a 25% extra each 30 sec during 10 sec duration (1/3 uptime).
Looking at armored dummie test, the shadow warrior was doing more damage burst in 3 sec timestamp and way higher DPS in the full kill than a squig herder + pet which could barely come close when it used pet moral one.

You get the damage mitigation (25%) from autodetaunt for free at a minor loss of damage output from yourelf and no downside other than that, I concede that. However in theoretical terms the tactic is to compenstate for the shorter range and therefore more chance of damage. So you can dive/focus someone and not worry too much about others, for example. Same as speed tactic logic there which I am not specifically addressing it's just an aside I thought I'd mention since you are questioning it. To address your point of attacking who you have targetted and also detaunted I'm sorry, I don't get what you mean. 25% free mitigation free as in you don't need to spend a gcd and the loss of damage is to that target which surely thats not a downside as you control when you break it. Even players without an 'auto detaunt' will use detaunt mid rotation or when roaming. IE If I entertain you here that you arent trolling or incompetant, that you are talking about this 1v1 or at least targetting who you have proc'd this on, and you are vs a FA SW who procc'd you autodetaunt (yes, that is how it works) who casts a FA you would be at a disadvantage if you did attack them as you would want the 25% free damage reduction (should be lower still) to eat the burst, then break the tactics weakness by attacking. Any subsequest detaunts in that fight are also to your benefit, although this is subjective I acknowledge it does have benefits IF you want to be like this. It isn't about a lab environment but what you do with it. Or in other words, how can something be abused for benefit. I argue 25% is still too mcuh and it should be 15% perhaps with a 30% proc rate.

so tha But the damage reduction isn't a downside for taking 25% less damage automatically from anyone Would you address my point of bullseye in return and the comment I made about bullseyes downside in relation to renown points. I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

'Semantics'.
You play Skirmish/QS its the playstyle. You wouldn't say no to the extra crit and crit damage if they were higher and you definitely wouldnt exchange them for armour pen. Any QS SH who want this speak up. Lose your burst on your speedbuffed autodetaunted dive to focus someone due to shorter range in exchange for less burst and more steady damage. As mentioned in my first post in this thread. So why be like this, if it was any other way (applying to MORE abilities if I get your concerns correctly here) the stats would absolutely need to be lower, conversely. Do you not agree? I am not defending SW in favor of homogenised classes or even balanced classes. I am aware of how balance goes even in RoR... You take the tactic for that playstyle/build and use abilities within player preference of rotation as a result that beneft from the crit and crit damage. You don't spec for that tactic and not play that tree's style. Yes SW has higher base. Yes SW has VoN. You don't see Skirmish SW being anywere as effective as QS RSH and you don't see ASW being anywhere near as effective as melee SH. The class is superior. Dummy test is nogo. Not RvR/smallscale outnumbered not even applicable in my limited 6v6 spvp experience. If you can reliably burst within the confines of class like that then 'skill' is irrelevant you just ability rotate through the opposing teams teamwork mitigation the burst. Maybe we play differen games but RSH is a thing in that environment, debatebly, but RSW is not. What else can test dummie show me.

I love my SW, its my main and almost all my RoR tiem on it, and will contonue to be. But to make out like it doesn't have severe deficiencies at core aspectsts of the game is nuts. I'm not saying its useless Im saying it is neutered to the pooint of not being effective in its role by such a huge margin that it is only the top players (which I am not) with the best gear (which I do not have) that can makethe class look remotely useable in anything other than zergsurfing (which I find fun), because it's a popular archetype and to have lots of strong popular classes of a certain archetype, any archetype, would be horrible right? Not like there are way more tanks on Destro because theyre cooler than Orders. That's fine. But that isn't going anywhere and While Destro have always been offensive/melee orientated maybe that should be addressed too, or lets keep this about SW bullseye... which I have asked you to address my previous comment because as mentioned I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on its inherent weakness.

[gitonstrugle]

Meanwhile RSH has 1 tactic free auto detaunt for massive amounts of one-size-fits-all damage mitigation no downside

That tactic was nerfed, not only the detaunt amount was lowered from 50% to 25% detaunt, they even gave you damage reduction by 25% during that detaunt effect... saying it has no downside is not true.

and 1 tactic flat 15% crit AND 35% crit dmage for one entire playstyle

Another time you wrong, the 15% crit chance only affects skirmish path and leaving out two abilities that you can see in combat log of those skirmish squigs that you say are 95% of the squigs... for example shrapnel arrer and finish em off are not affected by that 15%, because both abilities are part of big shooting path (50% of the instant abilities used by squigs are not affected by that 15% extra crit chance).
Respect to your statment that says 35% increased critical damage affects your ENTIRE playstyle, you are wrong other time because that 35% increased critical damage only affects two abilities (red tipped arrow 15 sec cooldown and behind ya 10 sec cooldown and only usable from behind) all other abiltiies out of those two are not affected by 35% increased critical

As i said from my test in armored dummies and everything i seen, the shadowarrior not only have higher base damage in all abilities, higher crit chance thanks to bullseye affecting all paths and way higher critical damage hits thanks to self permanent buff with increased crit damage in ALL abilities, they even add an extra tool like Vengeance which increase damage a 25% extra each 30 sec during 10 sec duration (1/3 uptime).
Looking at armored dummie test, the shadow warrior was doing more damage burst in 3 sec timestamp and way higher DPS in the full kill than a squig herder + pet which could barely come close when it used pet moral one.

You get the damage mitigation (25%) from autodetaunt for free at a minor loss of damage output from yourelf and no downside other than that, I concede that. However in theoretical terms the tactic is to compenstate for the shorter range and therefore more chance of damage. So you can dive/focus someone and not worry too much about others, for example. Same as speed tactic logic there which I am not specifically addressing it's just an aside I thought I'd mention since you are questioning it. To address your point of attacking who you have targetted and also detaunted I'm sorry, I don't get what you mean. 25% free mitigation free as in you don't need to spend a gcd and the loss of damage is to that target which surely thats not a downside as you control when you break it. Even players without an 'auto detaunt' will use detaunt mid rotation or when roaming. IE If I entertain you here that you arent trolling or incompetant, that you are talking about this 1v1 or at least targetting who you have proc'd this on, and you are vs a FA SW who procc'd you autodetaunt (yes, that is how it works) who casts a FA you would be at a disadvantage if you did attack them as you would want the 25% free damage reduction (should be lower still) to eat the burst, then break the tactics weakness by attacking. Any subsequest detaunts in that fight are also to your benefit, although this is subjective I acknowledge it does have benefits IF you want to be like this. It isn't about a lab environment but what you do with it. Or in other words, how can something be abused for benefit. I argue 25% is still too mcuh and it should be 15% perhaps with a 30% proc rate.

so tha But the damage reduction isn't a downside for taking 25% less damage automatically from anyone Would you address my point of bullseye in return and the comment I made about bullseyes downside in relation to renown points. I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

'Semantics'.
You play Skirmish/QS its the playstyle. You wouldn't say no to the extra crit and crit damage if they were higher and you definitely wouldnt exchange them for armour pen. Any QS SH who want this speak up. Lose your burst on your speedbuffed autodetaunted dive to focus someone due to shorter range in exchange for less burst and more steady damage. As mentioned in my first post in this thread. So why be like this, if it was any other way (applying to MORE abilities if I get your concerns correctly here) the stats would absolutely need to be lower, conversely. Do you not agree? I am not defending SW in favor of homogenised classes or even balanced classes. I am aware of how balance goes even in RoR... You take the tactic for that playstyle/build and use abilities within player preference of rotation as a result that beneft from the crit and crit damage. You don't spec for that tactic and not play that tree's style. Yes SW has higher base. Yes SW has VoN. You don't see Skirmish SW being anywere as effective as QS RSH and you don't see ASW being anywhere near as effective as melee SH. The class is superior. Dummy test is nogo. Not RvR/smallscale outnumbered not even applicable in my limited 6v6 spvp experience. If you can reliably burst within the confines of class like that then 'skill' is irrelevant you just ability rotate through the opposing teams teamwork mitigation the burst. Maybe we play differen games but RSH is a thing in that environment, debatebly, but RSW is not. What else can test dummie show me.

I love my SW, its my main and almost all my RoR tiem on it, and will contonue to be. But to make out like it doesn't have severe deficiencies at core aspectsts of the game is nuts. I'm not saying its useless Im saying it is neutered to the pooint of not being effective in its role by such a huge margin that it is only the top players (which I am not) with the best gear (which I do not have) that can makethe class look remotely useable in anything other than zergsurfing (which I find fun), because it's a popular archetype and to have lots of strong popular classes of a certain archetype, any archetype, would be horrible right? Not like there are way more tanks on Destro because theyre cooler than Orders. That's fine. But that isn't going anywhere and While Destro have always been offensive/melee orientated maybe that should be addressed too, or lets keep this about SW bullseye... which I have asked you to address my previous comment because as mentioned I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on its inherent weakness.

I invite you actively to play one if you think the squig herder is that good, maybe you surprise yourself.

[TanithScout]

You think I think SH is op? If thats what youre getting from this, no point discussing in SW thread how it is not a good choice for its role as damage dealer especially when compared with its counterpart... maybe we play different games and in your SW is not viewed as universally crap.

I enjoy my SH a lot, thankyou for the invitation. Hes cute and squelchy.