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DPS Zealot today...

Chosen, Magus, Marauder, Zealot
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Detangler
Posts: 743

Re: DPS Zealot today...

Post#11 » Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:46 am

Broodling wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:22 pm I would love to see some kind of love to DPS RP/Zealot!!! i have been thinking a good deal about what they could do to help it without making it getting out of hand. but i dont know enough of the backend on how things work/scale to really put out many ideas. being able to spec some kind of finishing instant cast would be a real nice start. I think adding some kind of damage boost to glowy hands when active and not just stat swapping and less chance to be disruped (if they added this i would think they would have to nurf down some of the AOE skills slightly to not make the already preaty strong AOE ungodly). Those where a few things i was thinking... again not sure if they are good ideas without knowing the backend of things but they are ideas none the less.
Its not on the career builder or the tool tip in game, but Transference does indeed give 10% disrupt strikethrough. That is something, at least.
Detangler and alts - 84 Chosen, other 40s - DoK, Zealot, SH, WE, BG
Destro - Occasional PVP when bored
Tangler and alts - 6X SM , 30 Slayer crafting bot
Order - In hibernation

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shoelessHN
Posts: 118

Re: DPS Zealot today...

Post#12 » Tue Oct 11, 2022 6:37 am

Bring back the 60s dot from live for zealots.

Ruin
Posts: 67

Re: DPS Zealot today...

Post#13 » Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:46 am

In my opinion to start helping with making the specs more useful, I would say that:
- Runic Blasting and Chaotic Fate should work similarly to Murderous Intent or Mork is Watching (thou I think this version of AM, Shammy tactics should provide critical rating, so a generic crit to all damage and healing while removing the heal crit tactic), by providing a bonus to crit not just to 3 skills but at least to whole mastery, or preferably for DPS all abilities (walues to be determined),
- Rune of Fate and Boon of Tzeench should be able to cast on the move, or in case of Zealot affected by Scourged Warping,
- and third this this time only for zealot chaotic agitation should be able to be channelled on the move.

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wonshot
Posts: 1033

Re: DPS Zealot today...

Post#14 » Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:24 am

When I was leading <Just Respawn> we tried to always have a dps zealot in our warband, not for the damage as the damage is really really poor with no burst, instead we gave up the 8th dps spot for a dps-zealot to debuff and amplify the other 7melee dps in the warband.

Warband debuffer role:
- Will take the spot of one of the 8 dps, will get guarded and double healed.
- Will be paired with a Choppa in the group to get Chopfaster, for spamming the 5sec cooldowns involving frontal dot and 30ft aoe.
- Will serve as interrupt tool with Winds of Insanity on the frontline, and be the aoe silencer against Order backline stacks. (no immunities and breaks momentum) [same role on MSH]
- Will do M1 Talon on Order Warbandleaders to assist and burst them down to stop them leading and get out of sync with Rage-magement and Morale status.

Tactics:
3 of them are pretty mandatory for the build,we tried making it a hybrid spec for a bit with moralepump on critheals, but it didnt fit in. Then tried the reflec uppon taking dmg for some extra fluff dmg numbers but was not really worth it. Then settled on serving as aoe silence on a healer stack, while maras would be responsable of knocking down frontline to apply front+backline pressure at once.

Synergy:
First of all the build needs to have a Choppa in the group, so your 5sec cooldowns go to 0. You will then start spraying out 990 armor debuff frontal 40ft allowing your other melee dps to deal more damage. Since this armor debuff comes from a Tactic slot, it will stack with Ability armor debuffs such as Ruin/Valewaker tank setbonuses, or MSH Bloodlord/onslaught gear. On top of this, you debuff your own damage type slightly, while also the MDPS tactic Jagged Edge dot is dealing Corp damage, so you make those tick sliiiightly harder (we ran the numbers it was quite low increase)

Stat priority:
After the Devs nuked the healdebuff tactic on dps runie/zealot the Crit Glasscanon warband build kinda died. So now stacking int + strikethrough seemed to be the way. No matter how much int and crit we tried stacking the damagenumbers and output never became meaningful, so we settled on int and strikethrough for just landing and connecting the armor debuffs more reliably.

The character builder:
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... 9,8597,585

Nothing fancy, but i think we were some of the only ones who built a warband around running a 7mdp and 1dps zealot composition, mixed with choppa per group, 1-2 maras, 1 msh for icdr + pierce defence and one dps zealot. Im sure not all guilds will allow or want to run a dps zealot, but we found it to be worth mathematically to give up one dps spot to boost the other 7 while gaining all of the utility this dpshealer brings. Unfortuneatly, this class is just not bringing damage no matter if you go allout and get int/crit or as offensive as you can.
Bombling RR 91 - Bombthebuilder 82 Engi - Bombing 78 SL - Bling 72 Knight - Orderling 72 WP - Jackinabox 65WH
Gombling 85 mSH - Chopling 83 Choppa - Notbombling 82 Sorc - Powerhouse 81 Zealot - Goldbag 80 Mara - Smurfling 75 Sham -Blobling 66BO

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Ekundu01
Posts: 305

Re: DPS Zealot today...

Post#15 » Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:01 pm

The only way you could make DPS zealot and RP a balanced option you would have to completely change how the class functions or else it would be too easy to switch back and forth between damage and heals with no down side other than renown points. It would be like dps shaman or AM on steroids if you just bumped up damage numbers.

But i do have some suggestions on how to do it.

One option would be to have harbinger/rune of breaking be a casted skill that only works out of combat. You could bump up damage numbers of the dps side of things and you couldn't just toggle it off really quick to heal. The draw back to this is sometimes these skills bug out when gear is swapped out and it possibly could be abused in some way. Probably not the best solution.

2nd option would be to scrap divine fury make a new tactic that would act as divine fury but also make some skills do different things when harbinger/breaking is toggled on for dps. So for example it it would still increase damage and reduce healing output when slotted but it would change some heal skills into damage skills when harbinger/breaking is toggled on. Obviously the range on those skills would have to be reduced to 100 feet when converted but it could convert the heal and hot to a damage and dot, the leaping hot could convert to a leaping dot. Instant heal could convert to instant damage would need ap increase and cd added to the skill when converted to damage. This would balance the problem of damage and heals when trying to maximize damage because you couldn't just use all heals you have while still doing great damage something AM and shaman do a bit too well right now and needs tweaking.

3rd option would be to do a complete overhaul of the class and make dedicated heal/damage trees and lose the conversion skill but then it would probably just feel like AM/Sham with no real mechanic to the class. This would take a ton of time as well to rework everything.
Trismack

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BluIzLucky
Posts: 483

Re: DPS Zealot today...

Post#16 » Wed Oct 12, 2022 6:55 pm

Ekundu01 wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:01 pm The only way you could make DPS zealot and RP a balanced option you would have to completely change how the class functions or else it would be too easy to switch back and forth between damage and heals with no down side other than renown points. It would be like dps shaman or AM on steroids if you just bumped up damage numbers.
Spoiler:
But i do have some suggestions on how to do it.

One option would be to have harbinger/rune of breaking be a casted skill that only works out of combat. You could bump up damage numbers of the dps side of things and you couldn't just toggle it off really quick to heal. The draw back to this is sometimes these skills bug out when gear is swapped out and it possibly could be abused in some way. Probably not the best solution.

2nd option would be to scrap divine fury make a new tactic that would act as divine fury but also make some skills do different things when harbinger/breaking is toggled on for dps. So for example it it would still increase damage and reduce healing output when slotted but it would change some heal skills into damage skills when harbinger/breaking is toggled on. Obviously the range on those skills would have to be reduced to 100 feet when converted but it could convert the heal and hot to a damage and dot, the leaping hot could convert to a leaping dot. Instant heal could convert to instant damage would need ap increase and cd added to the skill when converted to damage. This would balance the problem of damage and heals when trying to maximize damage because you couldn't just use all heals you have while still doing great damage something AM and shaman do a bit too well right now and needs tweaking.

3rd option would be to do a complete overhaul of the class and make dedicated heal/damage trees and lose the conversion skill but then it would probably just feel like AM/Sham with no real mechanic to the class. This would take a ton of time as well to rework everything.
Runepriest does great AoE dps (evidenced by mighty Runmasta :lol:), you can argue it's not great for soloing/ST target on either RP or ZL, but something as simple as..

1. buffing/bug fixing the missing 40% dmg on the ST channel should be first step and..

2. base dmg of 15s dot also seems 100 lower than sham/am version, so buff/fix those.

And Zealot's AoE problem is very low dps per action..
3. the aoe dot Demon Spittle has a very bad/small cone, it's supposed to be 40f but even SM's 25f Phoenix Wing is twice the size.

Solution: fix cone and replace non-functioning tactic Swirling Vortex with: add 50% aoe increase to Demon Spittle (RP mirror Extend Battle)

4. Chaotic Agitation has extremely low dps (probably 20-40% AMs Radiant Burst even with 30f), cast on move would be nice, but wouldn't fix the low dmg issue.
Solution: Swirling Vortex now also doubles tick rate of CA (2X dmg).

This would tie zealot's maximum dmg to 4 tactics, like we have for RP, preventing strong utility+healing+damage at the same time.
Even doing this would probably still put Zeslot under RP in terms of damage, though take it from pathetic to acceptable, and that's where the utility/dmg trade-off comes in, like you have with chosen/Knight.
SM - Arhalien +80 | AM - Shaheena +80
ZL - Wildera +70 | BG - Blackcrow +70

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Fenris78
Posts: 671

Re: DPS Zealot today...

Post#17 » Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:28 pm

Or we can just nerf AM/Sham dps to level of Runi/Zealot one, and now healers will play healers instead of wannabe dps :p

I still dont see the need of healers that can dps like a pure dps, it's just bad for overall balance (healers that take a healer spot but are not playing their initial role) and only lead to aberrations like DPS AM/Sham wich are a plaguing this game.

Start by making healer classes more rewarding and fun to play, instead of wanting the tools of other classes.

Yes, a healer SHOULD be able to dps to a certain extend, but mostly to allow solo/small group or PvE, providing support dps only and heal + protection to teammates.
I dont think allowing healers, in any MMO for that matters, to deal extensive damage (or just be uber viable as a damage dealer) is needed nor healthy for the game, wich already lacks good healers (especially Order-side).


About the initial topic, yes, you could make damage equal to Sham/AM, but in the end, who will ever play those classes ever again ?
RP/Zealot got so much more tools to survive and be very polyvalent in their main role, and since you can just go DPS with an instant skill, you would be just the better version of AM/Sham without the need to ever respecialize ; half mastery to healer, half to dps, and there you go, DPS and heal mode are a button away from each other.

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Valfaros
Posts: 234

Re: DPS Zealot today...

Post#18 » Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:39 pm

My biggest problem with single target zealot (left/middle) tree was always no useful ranged corp debuff. So you either bring a bo with the corp debuff or you get rendered useless if the enemy has high resistance.

You could go right tree and grab the tactic but then you have to either give up heal debuff or transference to get a semi useful corp debuff that forces you to go way to close. You give up the main advantage of the spec which allows you to kite better than most. In my opinion a strong corp debuff should be on the warp reality tactic together with the exsisting effects. It's a simple fix that would help alot and synergize with sorc.

ST dps zealot is also further quite ap intensive so you always should go for the ritual so more skills you kinda want to spec.

Personally I would further make BoT instant. The skill is already quite strong in terms of dps zealot skills but the spec would get quite a bit more value as dps heal if it would be instant. It would allow you to react to spike on your team. At the moment you start casting and in many cases you waste the heal because of the long cast time.

Further I tried MoM and was quite disappointed. SoR is good, transference has it's value but going up to MoM means you give up stagger for it which brings way more value in most cases. The idea further hindering heals is great but the dot is not very long lived you spend 2s to cast it, even with cover dots it will often be cleansed. In most cases you deal run better with reapplying warp reality to get very frequent procs.

Fenris comment is not really useful. If people want to play dps they will if you make the spec unviable they just will rerole and not suddendly start playing healers. Personally I watch the setup in the sc and if we are short I can easily switch. Zealot traitines are in this sense very clever and allow for a easy switch requiring only tactic and harbinger swap. You still are squishy af but pump out good heal numbers but any premade will overroll you easily for the lack of defensive stats.
The idea zealot makes any dps without df even with swapping the stats is quite far from the reality. Further any heal zealot focuses more on deffensive stats than offensive / heal stats which would be needed to switch to dps. The dps without going full glasscanon is so pityfull that the thought a heal zealo will just proc harbinger and blast the enemy away makes me chuckle by quite a bit.

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Cyrylius
Posts: 290

Re: DPS Zealot today...

Post#19 » Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:47 am

Runepriest can do aoe damage, some even say highest on order. Would making zealot do equal damage be really that bad for balance?
RoR doesnt deserve being taken seriously.

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Scottx125
Posts: 593

Re: DPS Zealot today...

Post#20 » Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:15 am

Cyrylius wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 1:47 am Runepriest can do aoe damage, some even say highest on order. Would making zealot do equal damage be really that bad for balance?
No.. If that was the case, everyone would be running RP AoE DPS in their organised warbands, hint they don't. It's all White Lions, Slayers and Bright Wizards.
Spoiler:
Fenris78 wrote: Wed Oct 12, 2022 7:28 pm Or we can just nerf AM/Sham dps to level of Runi/Zealot one, and now healers will play healers instead of wannabe dps :p

I still dont see the need of healers that can dps like a pure dps, it's just bad for overall balance (healers that take a healer spot but are not playing their initial role) and only lead to aberrations like DPS AM/Sham wich are a plaguing this game.

Start by making healer classes more rewarding and fun to play, instead of wanting the tools of other classes.

Yes, a healer SHOULD be able to dps to a certain extend, but mostly to allow solo/small group or PvE, providing support dps only and heal + protection to teammates.
I dont think allowing healers, in any MMO for that matters, to deal extensive damage (or just be uber viable as a damage dealer) is needed nor healthy for the game, wich already lacks good healers (especially Order-side).


About the initial topic, yes, you could make damage equal to Sham/AM, but in the end, who will ever play those classes ever again ?
RP/Zealot got so much more tools to survive and be very polyvalent in their main role, and since you can just go DPS with an instant skill, you would be just the better version of AM/Sham without the need to ever respecialize ; half mastery to healer, half to dps, and there you go, DPS and heal mode are a button away from each other.
Sorry no, I disagree. A class is defined by it's spec in WAR. Not by it's traditional 'role'. Do I think Healers as DPS spec should out damage pure DPS? No. But they should bring something to the table to be viable in warband content which makes up for the lack of DPS. If you can't have full DPS, you need to have utility. Which is something most DPS healers (excluding AM/Shamans) don't have that other specs on other classes do better.
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