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Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

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yoluigi
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Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#31 » Mon May 29, 2023 1:09 am

geezereur wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:00 am My Witch Hunter with healing bullets heals more than my dps Warrior Priest, Divine Assault is so easy to interupt. Whats the point of a dps wp if my witch hunter can survive better and do way more damage?
ya they would need to tweak the channel soo when you get absorbed you still get some heals. The 2h build is really frustrating sometime especialy now the channel break from nothing since the last big patch that changed the ap system your channel is off an inch and it stop before it would stick alot better. IMO i would just put back Sigmar radiance and put a 20 sec cooldown if your using a 2h (same for dok) That mean they wont be able to spam it but use it once a while in "oh **** momments"

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Detangler
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Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#32 » Mon May 29, 2023 3:05 am

geezereur wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:00 am My Witch Hunter with healing bullets heals more than my dps Warrior Priest, Divine Assault is so easy to interupt. Whats the point of a dps wp if my witch hunter can survive better and do way more damage?
It's almost like the self healing of WH and WE is laughably overtuned....
Detangler and alts - 84 Chosen, other 40s - DoK, Zealot, SH, WE, BG, BO
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Tangler and alts - 8X IB, other 40s - RP, SM
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Mvl130
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Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#33 » Mon May 29, 2023 12:12 pm

Omegus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:46 pm
Did you know that nothing in this game is balanced around 1v1? At this point I'm pretty sure the devs kept DPS Shamans and AMs as they are to keep people from thinking 1v1 should ever be a thing. Group game, group comps. 1v1 is an aberration, regardless of how much some people really want it to be a thing.
I read your post and I'm just going to answer on this part because I spent enough time making my point on the other aspects. What you're basically saying in your entire post is that shield healers are very good in scenarios (black fire basin is not one of them, so not all of them actually), and then outside of that you're not supposed to play that spec, and it's normal if you get endlessly kited in RvR lakes if you play it, and you're not supposed to join warbands although if you're not in a warband in RvR you spend your time getting jumped on by them... and chalice/book healers also work really fine in scenarios as well as in warbands, and even if they can't assist on damage their absorb effects give a high protection score in scenarios, superior to your damage score as a shield healer, all of that without a guard on. Now you look at the usual 2/2/2 scenario premade steamrolling the other faction and they hardly ever have a shield healer, so again you're doing what Detangler was doing which is to imagine a niche where shield healers are really asked for, and the reality is they're not. You and Detangler are doing this to magically discard the kiting issues I'm mentionning by invoking this very specific playstile that no one is currently using

Now to come back with your 1v1 point, first of all you're just making the assumption that the game should not be balanced around 1v1 for whatever reason, and you're going to say "because it's a team game". Well you can see how scenarios are well balanced and not one sided-stomps most of the time, how land of the dead isn't won all the time by destro, how cities don't happen only in IC, how the RvR campaign isn't mostly made by an overpopulated faction capturing empty keeps...
So this game isn't supposed to be balanced around 1v1 because it is supposed to be balanced around group fights, and I don't see what allows you to say that balancing around duels is necesseraly antagonistic to balancing for groups. As you've mentioned yourself archmages and shamans have a broken 1v1 efficiency, so duels are unbalanced in generals ; but at the same time, the one-sided scenarios, the zergfest and the pvdoor are also here to show you that group fighting is just as unbalanced and clunky as duels. Which proves my point that there is not necessarily an opposition between balancing duels and balancing group fights, since both can be broken at the same time

Second of all, you're also assuming that I was specifically speaking of 1v1 (Detangler did the same assumption). So it's always the convenient way of the "usual forumer" that bores me so much, to simply make a back flip on that sort of issues by narrowing it to some duel situation that no one ever mentionned, so you can easily discard the point that was made (which also implies the assumption that solo issues are not issues).
The fact that you consider this as a non-issue because it is supposedly only a problem in duels is already a very biased opinion, since solo situations are also part of the game, and always happen at some point or another. There is no reason for these situations to be discarded, or made as painful as possible as you've suggested. If you think that doing this is supposed to "encourage" people to group up, I could argue that these seriously unbalanced moments are actually encouraging people to stop playing the game. Some balance around solo situations can create satisfying moments where a player has a chance to win if a dueling situation pops up while roaming or in a scenario, and I don't see what allows you to say that this kind of satisfaction is irrelevant
But the fact that snaring shamans with Judgement makes them run faster is also an issue in scenarios and small scale roaming, because you encounter shamans outside of solo situations too. Even if you're grouped with an IB and you encounter a solo shaman you're never going to reach him, and it's not even a 1v1 situation, and you're actually the one grouping up so by following your logic ("its a team game") things should be balanced so you should be the one winning in order to punish the evil solo player, and its not even the case. And yet you'll keep saying that things are as they should be for shield warrior-priest against shamans mobility, even if this situation I just described contradicts your point that the game is designed for groups and that solo should be completely discarded

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Omegus
Posts: 1373

Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#34 » Mon May 29, 2023 11:41 pm

Mvl130 wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:12 pm
Omegus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:46 pm
Did you know that nothing in this game is balanced around 1v1? At this point I'm pretty sure the devs kept DPS Shamans and AMs as they are to keep people from thinking 1v1 should ever be a thing. Group game, group comps. 1v1 is an aberration, regardless of how much some people really want it to be a thing.
I read your post and I'm just going to answer on this part because I spent enough time making my point on the other aspects. What you're basically saying in your entire post is that shield healers are very good in scenarios (black fire basin is not one of them, so not all of them actually), and then outside of that you're not supposed to play that spec, and it's normal if you get endlessly kited in RvR lakes if you play it, and you're not supposed to join warbands although if you're not in a warband in RvR you spend your time getting jumped on by them... and chalice/book healers also work really fine in scenarios as well as in warbands, and even if they can't assist on damage their absorb effects give a high protection score in scenarios, superior to your damage score as a shield healer, all of that without a guard on. Now you look at the usual 2/2/2 scenario premade steamrolling the other faction and they hardly ever have a shield healer, so again you're doing what Detangler was doing which is to imagine a niche where shield healers are really asked for, and the reality is they're not. You and Detangler are doing this to magically discard the kiting issues I'm mentionning by invoking this very specific playstile that no one is currently using

Now to come back with your 1v1 point, first of all you're just making the assumption that the game should not be balanced around 1v1 for whatever reason, and you're going to say "because it's a team game". Well you can see how scenarios are well balanced and not one sided-stomps most of the time, how land of the dead isn't won all the time by destro, how cities don't happen only in IC, how the RvR campaign isn't mostly made by an overpopulated faction capturing empty keeps...
So this game isn't supposed to be balanced around 1v1 because it is supposed to be balanced around group fights, and I don't see what allows you to say that balancing around duels is necesseraly antagonistic to balancing for groups. As you've mentioned yourself archmages and shamans have a broken 1v1 efficiency, so duels are unbalanced in generals ; but at the same time, the one-sided scenarios, the zergfest and the pvdoor are also here to show you that group fighting is just as unbalanced and clunky as duels. Which proves my point that there is not necessarily an opposition between balancing duels and balancing group fights, since both can be broken at the same time

Second of all, you're also assuming that I was specifically speaking of 1v1 (Detangler did the same assumption). So it's always the convenient way of the "usual forumer" that bores me so much, to simply make a back flip on that sort of issues by narrowing it to some duel situation that no one ever mentionned, so you can easily discard the point that was made (which also implies the assumption that solo issues are not issues).
The fact that you consider this as a non-issue because it is supposedly only a problem in duels is already a very biased opinion, since solo situations are also part of the game, and always happen at some point or another. There is no reason for these situations to be discarded, or made as painful as possible as you've suggested. If you think that doing this is supposed to "encourage" people to group up, I could argue that these seriously unbalanced moments are actually encouraging people to stop playing the game. Some balance around solo situations can create satisfying moments where a player has a chance to win if a dueling situation pops up while roaming or in a scenario, and I don't see what allows you to say that this kind of satisfaction is irrelevant
But the fact that snaring shamans with Judgement makes them run faster is also an issue in scenarios and small scale roaming, because you encounter shamans outside of solo situations too. Even if you're grouped with an IB and you encounter a solo shaman you're never going to reach him, and it's not even a 1v1 situation, and you're actually the one grouping up so by following your logic ("its a team game") things should be balanced so you should be the one winning in order to punish the evil solo player, and its not even the case. And yet you'll keep saying that things are as they should be for shield warrior-priest against shamans mobility, even if this situation I just described contradicts your point that the game is designed for groups and that solo should be completely discarded
Quick reply, not going to split out your post into individual quotes.

1) BFB is one of the very few maps where the important part is flat and featureless so yes it can be a bit easier for RPDS to play their games, although there are still options from other classes (pulls, ranged knockdowns, sprints to snare, staggers, etc) to catch people. And when fighting over the flag you have other things to hit to trigger healing.

2) You can respec for warband play. Respecs are free, and pure heal builds don't need amazing gear to do their job.

3) Chalice/book do well for pure healing yes, that is their job. The protection score meant they made the team harder to kill, and that has nothing to do with the damage output of the shield WP/DoK making the enemy easier to kill. Chalice/book healing numbers are AOE and have a lot of fluff in them, and unless I missed a change the protection scores for chalice/book healers don't really come from absorbs compared to cleansing. Massive protection from absorbs is usually a Zealot/RP thing as they can proc so many.

4) Regarding the usual 2/2/2, yes shield spec healer is rare. This is because: 1) the shield spec healer needs very good gear to be any good, 2) the tanks need to be very good at guard swapping, 3) a lot of undue hate towards melee healers due to how many people play them badly, 4) lots of people play healers to just heal. Basic 2/2/2 with 2 ranged healers is easier and can pug stomp just fine. The difference a shield healer can make matters more in sweaty fights.

5) My "assumption" about the game not being balanced around 1v1 comes from the devs saying they do not balance the game around 1v1. Don't try to put this as just my opinion (although I do agree with the devs on this one).

6) The comments about LOTD, scenario stomps, zerging in ORVR, etc, have nothing to do with career balance and pretty much everything to do with player organisation and coordination, or lack of. The devs do not "balance" for terrible player decisions.

7) If you're bringing up trying to chase down a Shaman who is killing you with DoTs then you're almost certainly talking about 1v1s, as that's pretty much the only time that kiting Shamans go around killing everything. There is also the step down from this where gobbos manage to escape with help from a speed proc, but that is not the same as the gobbo winning the fight. And if we start bring up unbalanced escape methods then we need to include the 2 classes that just go into stealth and peace out.

8) Again, the "game isn't balanced around solo" isn't just my opinion but instead is the aims of the dev team. Solo fights happen because people choose to run around solo looking for a fight (or trying to catch up to their group if they got stranded) and fights to happen, but the classes are not turned to ensure those random 1v1s are fair and balanced. I'm not aware of any game in the history of PVP that has managed to equally balance 1v1s up to 24v24 or bigger, and this game - whether it be live or ROR - is no exception. Solo fights are not banned, but don't expect them to be a good time.

9) Is the situation a 2v1 where the 2 are both very slow classes who trigger the Shaman's speed proc to let it escape? I'm not even sure any attempt is made to balance around 2-mans either, considering how tied to the "holy trinity" of tanks, DPS and healers the game is (by design). Amusingly, even though IBs are supposed to be slow if you spec right you can run down magic users if you use a shield with Hold the Line up and the Avalanche tactic. Not guaranteed to catch a kiter but it has much better chance of doing so than a lot of tanks.

The Shammy's box of tricks is not oppressive for 6v6 and above, and if anything a lot of that kit gets ignored because of how strong FoTG is and how that forces the Shaman to spec. I'd love to see Shamans and AMs be able to make more use of their Gork/Asuryan abilities and tactics. And regardless of what might happen to the gobbo racial speed tactic, you're not getting perma-speed from a shield proc as we've been there before.
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Sofong
Posts: 554

Re: Dok and WP Shields giving running speed

Post#35 » Tue May 30, 2023 4:01 am

geezereur wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:00 am My Witch Hunter with healing bullets heals more than my dps Warrior Priest, Divine Assault is so easy to interupt. Whats the point of a dps wp if my witch hunter can survive better and do way more damage?
well kind of prove how broken that class is. wh shouldnt be able to heal theselves in the first place, not to say out heal a wp.

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