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Acknowledging the Impact of Heal Debuffs on Damage Score

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Bosli
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Re: Acknowledging the Impact of Heal Debuffs on Damage Score

Post#11 » Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:57 am

The only way to somewhat show healdebuffs would be a "healing prevented" counter in the damage or kills mouseover, but even if you only count reduced not-overheal by in+out debuffs, the number will very likely get artificially inflated by low ticking HoTs being reduced in minor AoE damage with groupheals still going overheal at the same time.

With that, it would even be more useful to have a "healing prevented" shown on the healers and not the debuffers, to compare the gained worth of lifetap healers, morales etc. over normal heals.

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bw10
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Re: Acknowledging the Impact of Heal Debuffs on Damage Score

Post#12 » Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:08 pm

i appreciate the posts agreeing with my suggestion. the sole motivation behind is to give solo/pug players a small carrot to play better while providing data nerds with more numbers to crunch

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Scottx125
Posts: 965

Re: Acknowledging the Impact of Heal Debuffs on Damage Score

Post#13 » Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:30 pm

bw10 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:08 pm i appreciate the posts agreeing with my suggestion. the sole motivation behind is to give solo/pug players a small carrot to play better while providing data nerds with more numbers to crunch
Yes, but I highly doubt this change would make that much difference. Unless it was it's own stat. When people see damage done they don't think "Ah yes, my healing debuff is missing which is why my damage is bad" they think "looks like my build/gear/rotation isn't very good, I need to improve".
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Cyrylius
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Re: Acknowledging the Impact of Heal Debuffs on Damage Score

Post#14 » Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:37 pm

Let's not go down the rabbit hole of things not shown in scenario summary. 0.031% of all damage caused to a target affected by blackguard Crimson Death debuff should be attributed to the bg. If a target affected by a wounds debuff dies the value of debuff should be counted as damage contributed. Chosen does effectively 20 damage (without mitigation) every time a party member under the effect of an aura deals Str based damage and generates about 20% of all magical attacks casted on party as protection thanks to resistance aura. Marauder not only interrupts channels with mouth of tzeentch which should technically count as (amount of damage channel would do over the remaining duration- damage done spamming basic AoE) (that doesn't count other possible interrupts that could happen, really should be probably divided by some number derived from amount of soft and hard interrupts on destro that hit a random order toon in given time) but also debuffs initiative (look Crimson Death estimation) and 80 WS which translates to about 7% armor pen iirc (so, 7% of any target's armor value converted to reduction times the damage caused worth of protection). A tank punting dps gets protection equal to potential damage said dps could cause in that time, while punting a tank deals effectively half the damage guarded dps takes until he starts benefiting from guard or detaunt again. Any morale pump gets (pump value)/(target morale gain+pump value) worth of any numbers a given target gets from using morale as long as the usage happens in between the moment morale ability becomes available and the moment it would be available anyway without the pump. And those aren't even the most impactful abilities, imagine calculating the value of AoE armor debuff, blessings of Chaos tactic, kd, AM stripping buffs, well placed mass Stagger/silence, burning head, windblock. List goes on.

There's no point in tracking everything, and while i do think some of those values could be implemented to show on summary I'm fine with the line being drawn at what we get currently.
RoR doesnt deserve being taken seriously.

bw10
Posts: 240

Re: Acknowledging the Impact of Heal Debuffs on Damage Score

Post#15 » Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:00 pm

Cyrylius wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:37 pm Let's not go down the rabbit hole of things not shown in scenario summary. 0.031% of all damage caused to a target affected by blackguard Crimson Death debuff should be attributed to the bg. If a target affected by a wounds debuff dies the value of debuff should be counted as damage contributed. Chosen does effectively 20 damage (without mitigation) every time a party member under the effect of an aura deals Str based damage and generates about 20% of all magical attacks casted on party as protection thanks to resistance aura. Marauder not only interrupts channels with mouth of tzeentch which should technically count as (amount of damage channel would do over the remaining duration- damage done spamming basic AoE) (that doesn't count other possible interrupts that could happen, really should be probably divided by some number derived from amount of soft and hard interrupts on destro that hit a random order toon in given time) but also debuffs initiative (look Crimson Death estimation) and 80 WS which translates to about 7% armor pen iirc (so, 7% of any target's armor value converted to reduction times the damage caused worth of protection). A tank punting dps gets protection equal to potential damage said dps could cause in that time, while punting a tank deals effectively half the damage guarded dps takes until he starts benefiting from guard or detaunt again. Any morale pump gets (pump value)/(target morale gain+pump value) worth of any numbers a given target gets from using morale as long as the usage happens in between the moment morale ability becomes available and the moment it would be available anyway without the pump. And those aren't even the most impactful abilities, imagine calculating the value of AoE armor debuff, blessings of Chaos tactic, kd, AM stripping buffs, well placed mass Stagger/silence, burning head, windblock. List goes on.

There's no point in tracking everything, and while i do think some of those values could be implemented to show on summary I'm fine with the line being drawn at what we get currently.
dishonest post and you know it

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Scottx125
Posts: 965

Re: Acknowledging the Impact of Heal Debuffs on Damage Score

Post#16 » Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:17 pm

bw10 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:00 pm
Cyrylius wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:37 pm Let's not go down the rabbit hole of things not shown in scenario summary. 0.031% of all damage caused to a target affected by blackguard Crimson Death debuff should be attributed to the bg. If a target affected by a wounds debuff dies the value of debuff should be counted as damage contributed. Chosen does effectively 20 damage (without mitigation) every time a party member under the effect of an aura deals Str based damage and generates about 20% of all magical attacks casted on party as protection thanks to resistance aura. Marauder not only interrupts channels with mouth of tzeentch which should technically count as (amount of damage channel would do over the remaining duration- damage done spamming basic AoE) (that doesn't count other possible interrupts that could happen, really should be probably divided by some number derived from amount of soft and hard interrupts on destro that hit a random order toon in given time) but also debuffs initiative (look Crimson Death estimation) and 80 WS which translates to about 7% armor pen iirc (so, 7% of any target's armor value converted to reduction times the damage caused worth of protection). A tank punting dps gets protection equal to potential damage said dps could cause in that time, while punting a tank deals effectively half the damage guarded dps takes until he starts benefiting from guard or detaunt again. Any morale pump gets (pump value)/(target morale gain+pump value) worth of any numbers a given target gets from using morale as long as the usage happens in between the moment morale ability becomes available and the moment it would be available anyway without the pump. And those aren't even the most impactful abilities, imagine calculating the value of AoE armor debuff, blessings of Chaos tactic, kd, AM stripping buffs, well placed mass Stagger/silence, burning head, windblock. List goes on.

There's no point in tracking everything, and while i do think some of those values could be implemented to show on summary I'm fine with the line being drawn at what we get currently.
dishonest post and you know it
I think you missed the point, his point was here's all these conditions you have to account for if you want to track everything. I tend to agree with him. It's pointless to track all these things. Would it be nice? Sure. But I honestly think there are more important things that need working on. And I completely disagree with you in the sense that tracking heal debuffs as extra dmg would cause DPS to use it more often. That only matters for people who care about pushing higher numbers. Which is irrelevant, numbers don't mean squat as a DPS, it just mean's you're good at fluffing. What means more IMO is your K/D ratio and your damage contribution to a kill.
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Cyrylius
Posts: 401

Re: Acknowledging the Impact of Heal Debuffs on Damage Score

Post#17 » Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:31 pm

bw10 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:00 pm
Cyrylius wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:37 pm Let's not go down the rabbit hole of things not shown in scenario summary. 0.031% of all damage caused to a target affected by blackguard Crimson Death debuff should be attributed to the bg. If a target affected by a wounds debuff dies the value of debuff should be counted as damage contributed. Chosen does effectively 20 damage (without mitigation) every time a party member under the effect of an aura deals Str based damage and generates about 20% of all magical attacks casted on party as protection thanks to resistance aura. Marauder not only interrupts channels with mouth of tzeentch which should technically count as (amount of damage channel would do over the remaining duration- damage done spamming basic AoE) (that doesn't count other possible interrupts that could happen, really should be probably divided by some number derived from amount of soft and hard interrupts on destro that hit a random order toon in given time) but also debuffs initiative (look Crimson Death estimation) and 80 WS which translates to about 7% armor pen iirc (so, 7% of any target's armor value converted to reduction times the damage caused worth of protection). A tank punting dps gets protection equal to potential damage said dps could cause in that time, while punting a tank deals effectively half the damage guarded dps takes until he starts benefiting from guard or detaunt again. Any morale pump gets (pump value)/(target morale gain+pump value) worth of any numbers a given target gets from using morale as long as the usage happens in between the moment morale ability becomes available and the moment it would be available anyway without the pump. And those aren't even the most impactful abilities, imagine calculating the value of AoE armor debuff, blessings of Chaos tactic, kd, AM stripping buffs, well placed mass Stagger/silence, burning head, windblock. List goes on.

There's no point in tracking everything, and while i do think some of those values could be implemented to show on summary I'm fine with the line being drawn at what we get currently.
dishonest post and you know it
I think you missed the point, my point was here's all these conditions you have to account for if you want to track everything. I tend to agree with myself. It's pointless to track all these things. Would it be nice? Sure. But I honestly think there are more important things that need working on. And I completely disagree with you in the sense that tracking heal debuffs as extra dmg would cause DPS to use it more often. That only matters for people who care about pushing higher numbers. Which is irrelevant, numbers don't mean squat as a DPS, it just mean's you're good at fluffing. What means more IMO is your K/D ratio and your damage contribution to a kill.

...more or less.

To elaborate, all the things i mentioned have a significant influence over the fights, and using them skillfully is sometimes more meaningful than any healdebuff. And we cant have all of them shown for obvious reasons.
RoR doesnt deserve being taken seriously.

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