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Renown Ranking Suggestions (How long to R80?)

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BluIzLucky
Posts: 676

Renown Ranking Suggestions (How long to R80?)

Post#1 » Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:04 pm

Back with another humble request.. and bear in mind I write this out of respect, love and longevity of the RoR project.
Life changes and so does RoR, my daily game time has gone from a solid 6-8 hours a day to a measly 0-2, and RoR has in the same period greatly reduced "baseline" renown gain in favour of kill based.

These two factors combined have impacted my enjoyment of the game, to a point where I could not be bothered to log in as often.
I came back for the 2X week and finally I felt that old sense of progression again, which in turn made me wonder how long (in game) it takes to reach 80.

DATA & METHOD & REASONING
Spoiler:
My first idea was to use the killboard API to get an estimate based on users' kills/deaths and scenarios from R1 to R80, but having fairly little free time, I decided to just go with some estimates, but if anyone has the API query for it would be happy to have a copy!


My second was to find a table with the renown required per rank and run it against various renown gain per hour. And that's what I did, thanks to https://gaiscioch.com/warhammer/leveling_guide/

For the estimates I've used the following renown per hour:
10k/h for losing / slow (5 scs per hour giving 2k renown. Roaming RvR with few fights and fewer kills)

30k/h for average (6 SC/h giving avg 5k each. Decent fights in RvR with a zone lock)

50k/h for high (almost exclusively winning fights, locking zones)


And I am aware that technically, much higher rates are possible (only play weekend sc with 90% win rate premade could get you +100k/h) but on average I doubt anyone are pushing past 50k/h, with afk and other non-pvp time, also until R60 or so your renown gain for the most part lower.
But if you feel I'm way off, let me know.


Next, how much renown is needed for each milestone?
RR40 (lowest recommended RR for T4): 669k (nice)

RR60 (can carry own weight in WB): 2.3M

RR78-80 (BIS, note a full 1M is needed for R79+R80 and all you get is 2 renown points, but they do open a couple of renown specs): 7-8M


We are going to focus on R80 here, but for your reference I've noted the others.


And let's look at some player profiles:
P1 (Casual dad gamer): 2 hours a day, always pugs and sometimes follows the WB leader. What does MA mean?

P2 (avg lad): 4 hours a day, mix of pugs and organised

P3 (hardcore eleete): 8 hours a day, exclusively premades


Finally putting it all together:
P1 would take a solid 8M/(10k/h*2h) = 400 days to R80 with a whopping 800 hours played.

P2 would take a decent 8M/(30k/h*4h) = 66.6 days to R80 with 266 hours played

P3 would take a measly "no grind at all" 8M/(50k/h*8h) = 20 days to R80 with 160 hours played


On top of these you can add another 12-24 hours of optional but recommended PvE (PQs and dungeons) and another 10 hours of completely optional farming/questing.

I'm in the 30k/h range, but in with only 1-2h daily play time, so 266 PvP + 24 PvE = 290 days (or 290 hours) for me to get ONE char to R80 with ONE BIS set.


For reference WoW classic nowadays takes about 120-200 hours from lvl 1-60, which while half the time required compared to RoR, is still considered grindy, DESPITE being a PvE focus game where the journey of levelling/questing/dungeoning is a major part of the game

And I'd argue that RoR should probably be half of what WoW is, e.g. 60-100 hours or about 100k/h avg, because this is a PvP game and as such should focus on quick catch up mechanics and then long term goals be horizontal.

The 2X Week (actually 2.5X since it's not worth running Renown potion on week days for me) really highlighted the slowness, and finally felt like I was actually making decent progress, having my time respected.

I do appreciate that things are as they are now by design, some people like the grind/journey or find that it's not long at all, we are just not in the same boat, so I hope these suggestions are a middle-ground, it shouldn't take a 2.5X boost to make the game appetising.
Solutions:
1. Rested Renown
This is the biggest win you could possibly do. All functions of Rested XP is mirrored (except it does stop at R40)
Currently Rested XP punishes casuals/low play time by under levelling RR, when the whole point of it is to encourage taking breaks and coming back, it's also only relevant for about 25% of a character's journey to 80.

Rested Renown will:
a. combat the ill effects of Rested XP.
b. give an ongoing incentive to come back and not overplay, that's always active.
c. encourage alting for those that play a lot
d. Reduce overall time needed to R80 (potentially by half for those with low play time)
e. make the Guild Halls as a hub/logout area slightly more valuable

At this point, you don't have to do more, but there's still other things to address..

The gap between winning and losing is too big, this is mainly due to rewards being tied so heavily to kills, this leads to extreme situations where the dominating side gets 50-100X MORE than the losing side.

This gives the winning side incentive to farm the others for kills while dragging out the SC as much as possible, and gives the losing side incentive to avoid fights and surrender as fast as possible.
And is incredibly, insanely unfriendly to new players and a waste of time for those hardened to it... in a game with ZERO matchmaking...

2. SC renown updates
a. 100 renown per minute is baseline
b. top contribution now gives 1k, 2nd 750, 3rd 500, 4th 250
c. no surrender gives 500
d. capping BOs gives 250
e. all renown from kills on both sides is pooled and divided out at the end. A 0-500 win will give a 30-70 split, a 499-500 will give a 49.9-50.1 split.
Yes, this means you can do 30-0 kills and get less renown than the enemy if you actually lose the sc 200-500.

I appreciate that changes were made to encourage fighting (BO removal/chaining), but please go back to ranked. I've provided solutions for making ranked great again previously (link below).


3. RvR renown updates
same as SC, RvR suffers now from missing a baseline progression and has similarly gone from 40-50% from kills to 70-80%, this means unless you are actively killing (winning), which means any pugs or undergeared wbs that usually get stomped, end up feeling like a waste of time.
So bring back BO defence ticks (the ones you'd get for running near BOs) and include a crest or two with them.

I don't really mind the nerfs to boxes and keep/fort/zone locks, especially if Rested Renown gets implemented, but a 20% increase wouldn't hurt.

Before going on to the next idea, I just want to explain the issue with having a big gap between winning and losing;
if you have a lot of play time each day, you are very unlikely not to experience both win and loss, averaging out to a decent experience (maybe even great with valleys and peaks)
but if all you have is an hour or two, chances are you will be stuck in the valley and feel like you just wasted your time.

Progression IS the content/carrot (more so than the odd dungeon or sc that gets released once a year), so to balance out these ~100% renown increase, a final set changes:


4. New Game +
A Renown RESET Vendor will be made available in the capital.
Here you can set your renown back to 1 in exchange for a special voucher(s).

a. you get 1 voucher approx every 8M renown, this turns out to be R80,90,95 and 100, so if you want you to go above 80 or already are, you can keep going.
b. The voucher can be exchanged for various goods:
2500 war crests
Trophies that gives 20% exp, inf or renown
Trophies that increase or reduce your model size by 5%.
Stat exchange trophies -10 wounds, +1% crit. And cosmetics.

c. titles for each reset
d. either the voucher or the items should be BoA (and not necessarily BoE), if the Voucher is BoA you could transfer crests (certain classes are a lot more crest hungry than others, so not a bad way of doing it)

I'm not decided on if CR should be reset too, leaning on NOT, as it would introduce twinks to low tiers, but probably either is fine.

The vendor would need a pop up warning and maybe like having to type in "Reset My Renown".

But however it gets implemented, players now have an option to go back to level for progression if they get to R80 too fast.


5. 2X Event adjustments
To counteract these renown buffs 2X Events going forward will be for Crests and Influence (no longer include Renown or XP).


6. Crests updates
I also believe that crest gain should be upped by 25-50% across the board, as most classes can spend 50-80k crests to be fully unlocked (yes, 10-20k is enough for one BIS set, but that already takes the same time as getting 80 ranks)

Won't go into details here, but simply adding more crests sinks should be enough.
New armour sets that changes/allows different playstyles, expensive consumables, cosmetics, etc.

previous suggestions for crests sinks (armour sets):
viewtopic.php?t=47721

previous suggestions for crests increases:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=50268


7. Alternatively..
If you don't want any of these changes, maybe after R50 reduce renown required to R80 by half.


Either way, any or all of these changes would be a very welcome addition, especially as you start playing around with abilities again, potentially breaking loved specs that people have spent years on.

Alright, thanks for reading and considering if you made it this far.
SM - Arhalien +80 | AM - Shaheena +80
ZL - Wildera +70 | BG - Blackcrow +70

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lemao
Posts: 262

Re: Renown Ranking Suggestions (How long to R80?)

Post#2 » Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:25 pm

Just no

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Haojin
Posts: 1046

Re: Renown Ranking Suggestions (How long to R80?)

Post#3 » Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:30 pm

amazing ideas, keep them coming !



(didn't read)
Guildmaster of Phalanx

K8P - Karak Norn

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georgehabadasher
Posts: 92

Re: Renown Ranking Suggestions (How long to R80?)

Post#4 » Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:58 am

This is a well thought out proposal that deserves serious consideration.

gyps
Posts: 113

Re: Renown Ranking Suggestions (How long to R80?)

Post#5 » Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:17 pm

Some of these are pretty good and this kind of "rebirth" ensures that whatever its done do not take away current merit from current >rr80 players giving them access to new stuff
4. New Game +
A Renown RESET Vendor will be made available in the capital.
Here you can set your renown back to 1 in exchange for a special voucher(s).

a. you get 1 voucher approx every 8M renown, this turns out to be R80,90,95 and 100, so if you want you to go above 80 or already are, you can keep going.
b. The voucher can be exchanged for various goods:
2500 war crests
Trophies that gives 20% exp, inf or renown
Trophies that increase or reduce your model size by 5%.
Stat exchange trophies -10 wounds, +1% crit. And cosmetics.
c. titles for each reset

User avatar
BluIzLucky
Posts: 676

Re: Renown Ranking Suggestions (How long to R80?)

Post#6 » Wed Sep 27, 2023 8:15 am

gyps wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 2:17 pm
Spoiler:
Some of these are pretty good and this kind of "rebirth" ensures that whatever its done do not take away current merit from current >rr80 players giving them access to new stuff
4. New Game +
A Renown RESET Vendor will be made available in the capital.
Here you can set your renown back to 1 in exchange for a special voucher(s).

a. you get 1 voucher approx every 8M renown, this turns out to be R80,90,95 and 100, so if you want you to go above 80 or already are, you can keep going.
b. The voucher can be exchanged for various goods:
2500 war crests
Trophies that gives 20% exp, inf or renown
Trophies that increase or reduce your model size by 5%.
Stat exchange trophies -10 wounds, +1% crit. And cosmetics.
c. titles for each reset
Yup, if just 1. (Rested Renown) and 4. Gets implemented, the rest would be cherry on top but not needed.
But if they went with a 50% rested bonus or nothing, I'd really like to see the rest.

Haojin wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:30 pm amazing ideas, keep them coming !
(didn't read)

Here's a TLDR of OP for you and anybody else:
To reduce the time required to R80 from an estimated 150-800 hours (avg 200-300), I suggest the following:
1. Rested Renown: to reduced overall time, especially for those with lower daily playtime.
2. + 3. + 6.: Increase baseline/participation rewards, to reduce gap between stomping and getting stomped and time with no progress.
4. "New Game +" / Renown Reset: rewards to keep long term goals for those that lvl quickly.
5. Change 2x Events to be Crests focused instead for RR if other changes are added.

These changes aims to switch some focus from vertical to horizontal progression.
SM - Arhalien +80 | AM - Shaheena +80
ZL - Wildera +70 | BG - Blackcrow +70

Avernus
Posts: 292

Re: Renown Ranking Suggestions (How long to R80?)

Post#7 » Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:08 am

BluIzLucky wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:04 pm
For reference WoW classic nowadays takes about 120-200 hours from lvl 1-60, which while half the time required compared to RoR, is still considered grindy, DESPITE being a PvE focus game where the journey of levelling/questing/dungeoning is a major part of the game

And I'd argue that RoR should probably be half of what WoW is, e.g. 60-100 hours or about 100k/h avg, because this is a PvP game and as such should focus on quick catch up mechanics and then long term goals be horizontal.
The fact that this fresh 60 lvl is just reached the endgame wow grindfest while being geared into crap barely passable to start farming something actually useful...

All while this 80 rr is already had an opportunity to see everything this game can offer and probably has a decent gear to "have fun while playing".

The "oh WoW is so good" stuff you are talikng about its the same as just hitting 40 lvl here, try to compare WoW time investments to farm all actual raids and top gear from said raids. You are probably gonna have a hard time to find a raid with your playstyle, i'm not even talking about how much success you can achieve with this raid.

And here you can just go and hit stuff at any time (almost...NA prime is kinda...) - and you will be 80rr eventually, even you are REALLY TERRIBLE player. I even had some experience with a guy like this.

This game is already easy and casual enough, minor quality of life tweaks would be great though. And balance patch is still not here...

User avatar
BluIzLucky
Posts: 676

Re: Renown Ranking Suggestions (How long to R80?)

Post#8 » Wed Sep 27, 2023 2:59 pm

Avernus wrote: Wed Sep 27, 2023 11:08 am
Spoiler:
BluIzLucky wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 5:04 pm
For reference WoW classic nowadays takes about 120-200 hours from lvl 1-60, which while half the time required compared to RoR, is still considered grindy, DESPITE being a PvE focus game where the journey of levelling/questing/dungeoning is a major part of the game

And I'd argue that RoR should probably be half of what WoW is, e.g. 60-100 hours or about 100k/h avg, because this is a PvP game and as such should focus on quick catch up mechanics and then long term goals be horizontal.
The fact that this fresh 60 lvl is just reached the endgame wow grindfest while being geared into crap barely passable to start farming something actually useful...

All while this 80 rr is already had an opportunity to see everything this game can offer and probably has a decent gear to "have fun while playing".

The "oh WoW is so good" stuff you are talikng about its the same as just hitting 40 lvl here, try to compare WoW time investments to farm all actual raids and top gear from said raids. You are probably gonna have a hard time to find a raid with your playstyle, i'm not even talking about how much success you can achieve with this raid.

And here you can just go and hit stuff at any time (almost...NA prime is kinda...) - and you will be 80rr eventually, even you are REALLY TERRIBLE player. I even had some experience with a guy like this.

This game is already easy and casual enough, minor quality of life tweaks would be great though. And balance patch is still not here...
It's a fair point, sure, you are not BIS by the time you hit 60.
But my point is not that WoW is good, it is that..

A. WoW (classic) is considered a very grindy game (with way fewer classes/specs), a PvP game should imo not be close.
My changes would at best half the current lvling time from 200-300 to 100-150.. that's still a grind..

B. WoW is a PvE game where you pick the challenges you are ready for and usually is lvl appropriate.
You are not forced to do PvP against way better and BIS geared players to progress. To have newbies in Ruin gear against full Sov for an extended period is probably not the best for retention.

C. If you increase renown gain without crest gain, by 78/80, you'd only be near BIS assuming you don't need 10k ring, and that's if you spent 0 crests until then.
And not even talking about the +50000 crests extra crests needed to fully BIS all specs of a single alt..

D. BIS is when you get to participate on an equal footing in organised warbands, city, ranked and nowadays the very try hard event SCs.
SM - Arhalien +80 | AM - Shaheena +80
ZL - Wildera +70 | BG - Blackcrow +70

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