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Shaman/AM nerf?

Black Orc, Squig Herder, Choppa, Shaman
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JohnnyWayne
Posts: 180

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#81 » Mon Feb 26, 2024 7:08 am

Nameless wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 4:52 pm
JohnnyWayne wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:28 am
Nameless wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2024 4:17 pm Shamans and am heal output is on par with zealot/rp so no need to buff there.
If you think that, I am not sure if you know what you are talking about. You cant compete against 1 / 1.5 second heals while AMs/sham are a second longer. EoV/fotdg did that, on the cost of survivability, compared to RP. Now that advantage is dimished, it is time to buff AM survivability, shaman has a non cd hot that redueces incoming damage by around 10%.
Am heal output is good enough, their problem is survivability and heal under pressure which rp do much better. But if you let am and rp free cast they are pretty close even without ww.
Am/shamans got best debuffs within healers.
25% heal increase is good as it is but am/shamans got pretty good healing stuff as well
Which completely misses my made point of AMs having too weak survivability for what they bring to the table.

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Ysaran
Posts: 1236

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#82 » Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:30 am

JohnnyWayne wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 7:08 am
Nameless wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 4:52 pm
JohnnyWayne wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 11:28 am

If you think that, I am not sure if you know what you are talking about. You cant compete against 1 / 1.5 second heals while AMs/sham are a second longer. EoV/fotdg did that, on the cost of survivability, compared to RP. Now that advantage is dimished, it is time to buff AM survivability, shaman has a non cd hot that redueces incoming damage by around 10%.
Am heal output is good enough, their problem is survivability and heal under pressure which rp do much better. But if you let am and rp free cast they are pretty close even without ww.
Am/shamans got best debuffs within healers.
25% heal increase is good as it is but am/shamans got pretty good healing stuff as well
Which completely misses my made point of AMs having too weak survivability for what they bring to the table.
The extra survivability shaman get is from Whazzat Behind You, the auto-detaunt tactic. But, honestly, i would gladly trade the tactic with AM's 3600 absorb M1. acorss the board i think that AM snd shaman have comparable survivability, with AM coming out on top due to the aoe detaunt giving 5s of no setback casting while shaman's aoe detaunt gives you... +5% disrupt?

The biggest nerf to AM/shaman survivability is being stationary during FodG/EoV. CAsting on the move made you a slippery target, while now the short range makes you a sack of RP ripe for some charge+kd.

P.S. yeah, i know shaman also have Run Away, but the tactic is trash after the nerf and no one use it. Even if it wasn't trash it would be highly situational since Shaman is really starved for tactics. Finally, since there is no casting on the move and no damage skill from your ass the efficacy of the tactic is nowhere near its past glory.
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PROsiak
Posts: 25

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#83 » Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:53 am

Ysaran wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:30 am The biggest nerf to AM/shaman survivability is being stationary during FodG/EoV. CAsting on the move made you a slippery target, while now the short range makes you a sack of RP ripe for some charge+kd.
While this is managable in small scale and scenarios situation, this is a real killer in organized wb setup. You can't heal while repositioning - you make even less use of WW buff which got with nerf to it's uptime as well. Add to this all the problems with rvr fights and problems of FodG/EoV in general, like worse game performance during heavy fights -meaning you cant react that fast to getting interrupted, or your target dying and heal not going off and it kinda starts screaming NO for AM viability in such situations.

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Ysaran
Posts: 1236

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#84 » Mon Feb 26, 2024 10:59 am

PROsiak wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:53 am
Ysaran wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:30 am The biggest nerf to AM/shaman survivability is being stationary during FodG/EoV. CAsting on the move made you a slippery target, while now the short range makes you a sack of RP ripe for some charge+kd.
While this is managable in small scale and scenarios situation, this is a real killer in organized wb setup. You can't heal while repositioning - you make even less use of WW buff which got with nerf to it's uptime as well. Add to this all the problems with rvr fights and problems of FodG/EoV in general, like worse game performance during heavy fights -meaning you cant react that fast to getting interrupted, or your target dying and heal not going off and it kinda starts screaming NO for AM viability in such situations.
I read somewhere that the last patches where just a first wave of changes, mainly focused on tanks and CCs and that two other waves will follows: one for dps and for healers. I hope that this problem will be addressed when it is time for the healer patch
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Nameless
Posts: 1146

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#85 » Mon Feb 26, 2024 4:18 pm

PROsiak wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:53 am
Ysaran wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:30 am The biggest nerf to AM/shaman survivability is being stationary during FodG/EoV. CAsting on the move made you a slippery target, while now the short range makes you a sack of RP ripe for some charge+kd.
While this is managable in small scale and scenarios situation, this is a real killer in organized wb setup. You can't heal while repositioning - you make even less use of WW buff which got with nerf to it's uptime as well. Add to this all the problems with rvr fights and problems of FodG/EoV in general, like worse game performance during heavy fights -meaning you cant react that fast to getting interrupted, or your target dying and heal not going off and it kinda starts screaming NO for AM viability in such situations.
This is big misconception. All healers are stationary at wb level of play when your group is taking dmg.

On paper wp/doks should be more mobile cos their grp heal is faster but to manage their resourses they need to be at mid range where all slows and cc are focused, and they just dont have tools to disengage. Even their knockback is frontal cone and parry based.

Zealots/rps had to spam grp heal so still more or less rooted on one place. Heal ritual is all great but it is addition to grp heal spam. For small scale and scens are pretty mobile but for wb action are mobile as other healers.

And now AM and shamans which for wb could just spam gheal like other healers or move 20 ft forward and cast within gheals eov while could controll better the enemy movement thanks to puddle slow.

For a wb scale all healers are stationary, you need to feel the flow of the combat to decide when and to where to move but for that most important is players awareness and knowledge not specific character abilitiy.

Zealots/rps are more telegraphic to play while am/shamans needs abit more mircro manage but they got good tools to do great. Ror developers done quite a few pretty good changes to make them miles ahead of war versions.
Mostly harmless

K8P & Norn - guild Orz

JohnnyWayne
Posts: 180

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#86 » Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:02 am

Sigh.
Zealots / RPs have the highest in party hps and are the most mobile with a spamable single target heal. They also have the highest hps by cast time on their own, when they are built properly with subjugator weapon and triumphant set. So far WP / DoK used to be the LEAST mobile, they had not a single heal ability (aside of instants) castable on the move. AMs and Shamans always had going for them that they were better at kiting than others, with the shaman ahead in durability, because of the greenskin tactics and the 200 toughness buff (which is a no cd hot, that reduces damage taken by 10-15% for 10 seconds). That also allows shamans to focus heavily into toughness with greater success than AMs can have. The kiting was the point made for them being able to cast on the move under certain conditions. Now AMs are the least mobile heals, followed by shamans. Then dok/WP and the most mobile is Zealot / RP.

AMs / shamans role in fights was, to stabilize the whole warband with strong aoe heals and area denial with puddles. Now they are considerabily worse zealots / RPs. Not just that EoV / FotG got hit for no reason, their synergy with WW / CF was also nerfed greatly with 50% reduced uptime.

akisnaakkeli
Posts: 142

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#87 » Tue Feb 27, 2024 9:44 am

Shaman/Am are the so called "Long Range Healer" So Fodg/Eov should be 9 pts and put the silence to 13 pts. And Fodg/Eov should have 110 ft range if they dont change it to being usable while moving.

Fodg/Eov should be 3s Cooldown and if you have points in correct path it would have 0s CD. Il take that was too good back when they had ex.ab mode. Take notes from ex.ab mode but dont make il take that too powerful.

Imo Am should also be able to move whilst casting Funnel Essence if you have heal points instead of dps points. Both could use 30s cooldown skill that switches points because atm mechanic is just there you cant really use it when healing your grp.

I liked how am/shaman Mechanic worked in PTS before ability rework. Every Mechanic point was 20% Increased effectivness if instant ability, reduced cast time and cost. So with 5 points Grp heal would be instant and 0 ap and vice versa Fodg would be instant 0 ap with 5 points the other way. Btw skills like Rain lord, Yer a wealin etc that dont give or take points to any direction, they should!

Also in PTS if you used grp heal and your mechanic is 0 and your grp heal would make it instant 5 pts if it healed 5 or 6. Same goes for Fogd/Eov lets say you heal 10 people at once, you would go from 5 points of gork to 5 points of mork(or other way around i dont remember if its mork/gork)

Shrug it off/Magical Infusion should be core and have 25% Heal effect even without the tactic. Replace with Puddle and new 9 pts Ability would be like Breath of Mork shammy morale 2 style ability. It would have instant Heal effect and every 2s it pulsates healing to anyone withing 20ft, duration is 10s long and 20s CD.

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Bavradai
Posts: 94

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#88 » Tue Feb 27, 2024 3:29 pm

Shaman does feel a lot clunkier to play as of the most recent patches. The fact that FodG can crit lends it far more to hybrid builds.
CDR is a thing of the past, not only are BG's rare, the BG's that have CDR are even rarer. On top of this it's taken CDR from greenskin warbands which has utterly crippled them.
CDR should be on Black Orcs, not Black Guards.
AM and Shaman should not be dependent on cooldown reduction to be effective imo.

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Nameless
Posts: 1146

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#89 » Tue Feb 27, 2024 3:58 pm

Oh my. Only thing that make zealot/rp so needed is the fact that the heal ritial proc everything and most importantly their 2 essential tactics - 25% heal increase and shield proc. That is all.
On orvr where you got multiple wbs spaming aao at the heat of the battle you dont spam flash cos one missed gheal result at your group being dead. So at that environment all healers are equally static.

On small scale flash is all good but ppl underestimate too much gfi which is good filler before hots start ticking it. Not to mention zealots count on several long cd skills for their safety while shamans could create space and run off much easier.

But my point is not to compare classes, each of backline healers got advantages and disadvantages BUT healing wise they are very close to eachother. They are different BUT when played properly their heal output is compatible.
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K8P & Norn - guild Orz

Kloaner
Posts: 121

Re: Shaman/AM nerf?

Post#90 » Tue Feb 27, 2024 4:54 pm

How many “needed” skills does a class need to count as the better Option? Or to put it another way, what do you find in the Shaman/AM that makes you say "I absolutely need this class in my group" when the second spot is already occupied by a DoK or WP and you also have a Zeal/RP you could pick?


you could buff shaman/AM without even touching them, make ritual/rune not count as direct heal, give BoC a Internal CD. Remove Silence and the Ressi buff
AM / RP / Shaman / Zealot / WP / DoK

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