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Is WH part of Class balance/review?

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shamallow
Posts: 54

Re: Is WH part of Class balance/review?

Post#31 » Wed Oct 30, 2024 11:17 am

wildwindblows wrote: Tue Oct 29, 2024 9:08 am Currently, wh/w.e are OP. Their back stab ignore 100% armor. I think this needs to be nerfed to 25% or something like that because almost all armor penetration tactics were nerfed. Having spammable 100% armor penetration for free is totally too strong.
LOL

currently witch elf is at the bottom of the abyss.
You get killed by many order classes in 1v1.
And this init change made things even worse.

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wildwindblows
Posts: 440

Re: Is WH part of Class balance/review?

Post#32 » Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:20 pm

You want buff your solo wh play. I hope this wont be happen in future.

Zxul
Posts: 1688

Re: Is WH part of Class balance/review?

Post#33 » Wed Oct 30, 2024 5:55 pm

wildwindblows wrote: Wed Oct 30, 2024 1:20 pm You want buff your solo wh play. I hope this wont be happen in future.
Lol. WH is currently overnerfed- hadn't run into any which gave me any kind of trouble, unless I made a mistake.

WE is in even worst shape- WH at least has BAL as a working finisher. WE however has non- RA spec was nerfed 3 times till it barely does dmg, Witchbrew after change hits for 200 or so dmg on unguarded target with a decent toughness. WE needs a working finisher to actually do dmg- currently am/sham do more single target dmg than a class which is an actual dmg dealer, and which is suppose to specialize in a single target dmg.

Currently WE is an unplayable class, unless you are planning to gank solo targets with 3+ WEs, and WH isn't that much better.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

Census
Posts: 3

Re: Is WH part of Class balance/review?

Post#34 » Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:19 pm

Hi Everyone

Thanks for the responses to my original post, seems like at some point it’ll get reviewed though unknown when. Will be interesting if the changes are good or bad for the class.

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Panzer80
Posts: 181

Re: Is WH part of Class balance/review?

Post#35 » Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:04 am

As a WH every class you face up against is better than you. Chosen > WH, Sham > WH, WE > WH, Mara > WH, Blorc > WH, BG > WH, Zealot > WH, Dok > WH, SH > WH, CH > WH.

Make gun abilities require dodge, give a better unique heal debuff, and make anything with "BURN" in the title apply elemental damage... Class fixed.
Nihrandil [SM] 84, Arendollus [WL] 83, Caelroran [SW] 60+, Thaler [WH] 84, Tionac [AM] 70+, Hocke [Kotbs] 70+
Gilgamash [BO] 82, Kaylor [Mara] 82, Gobsmack [Sham] 60+ Jockitch [SH] 60+

Zxul
Posts: 1688

Re: Is WH part of Class balance/review?

Post#36 » Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:30 am

Panzer80 wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:04 am As a WH every class you face up against is better than you. Chosen > WH, Sham > WH, WE > WH, Mara > WH, Blorc > WH, BG > WH, Zealot > WH, Dok > WH, SH > WH, CH > WH.

Make gun abilities require dodge, give a better unique heal debuff, and make anything with "BURN" in the title apply elemental damage... Class fixed.
WE isn't better than a WH- at least WH still has finishers which ain't overnerfed.

What better unique heal debuff do you need, when you already can debuff healing on a healer by 75%?

As for elemental dmg, probably a place to remind you that WH doesn't has ele resist debuff, while he does has armor debuff + ws. Have fun finding out your "burn" abilities now do significantly less dmg on anything with resists buff or resist lini- 40% mitigation before toughness, enjoy.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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Panzer80
Posts: 181

Re: Is WH part of Class balance/review?

Post#37 » Sat Nov 02, 2024 3:04 am

Zxul wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:30 am
Panzer80 wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:04 am As a WH every class you face up against is better than you. Chosen > WH, Sham > WH, WE > WH, Mara > WH, Blorc > WH, BG > WH, Zealot > WH, Dok > WH, SH > WH, CH > WH.

Make gun abilities require dodge, give a better unique heal debuff, and make anything with "BURN" in the title apply elemental damage... Class fixed.
WE isn't better than a WH- at least WH still has finishers which ain't overnerfed.

What better unique heal debuff do you need, when you already can debuff healing on a healer by 75%?

As for elemental dmg, probably a place to remind you that WH doesn't has ele resist debuff, while he does has armor debuff + ws. Have fun finding out your "burn" abilities now do significantly less dmg on anything with resists buff or resist lini- 40% mitigation before toughness, enjoy.
We is better than WH as I see it. Yes, WH has good finishers that miss bc they're parried XD. I don't know what they broke with WE finishers, so I won't comment there. WE has more magic damage capability than WH. That means less reliance on main stats and no split main stat for WS. In the case of elemental damage, you will have more options to do damage for different classes, not less. It's good that you only think I'm 5% wrong though. ;)
Last edited by Panzer80 on Sat Nov 02, 2024 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nihrandil [SM] 84, Arendollus [WL] 83, Caelroran [SW] 60+, Thaler [WH] 84, Tionac [AM] 70+, Hocke [Kotbs] 70+
Gilgamash [BO] 82, Kaylor [Mara] 82, Gobsmack [Sham] 60+ Jockitch [SH] 60+

Zxul
Posts: 1688

Re: Is WH part of Class balance/review?

Post#38 » Sat Nov 02, 2024 3:20 am

Panzer80 wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 3:04 am
Zxul wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:30 am
Panzer80 wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:04 am As a WH every class you face up against is better than you. Chosen > WH, Sham > WH, WE > WH, Mara > WH, Blorc > WH, BG > WH, Zealot > WH, Dok > WH, SH > WH, CH > WH.

Make gun abilities require dodge, give a better unique heal debuff, and make anything with "BURN" in the title apply elemental damage... Class fixed.
WE isn't better than a WH- at least WH still has finishers which ain't overnerfed.

What better unique heal debuff do you need, when you already can debuff healing on a healer by 75%?

As for elemental dmg, probably a place to remind you that WH doesn't has ele resist debuff, while he does has armor debuff + ws. Have fun finding out your "burn" abilities now do significantly less dmg on anything with resists buff or resist lini- 40% mitigation before toughness, enjoy.
We is better than WH as I see it. Yes, WH has good finishers that miss bc they're parried XD. I don't know what they broke with WE finishers, so I won't comment there. WE has more magic damage capability than WH. That means less reliance on main stats and no split main stat for WS. In the case of elemental damage, you will have more options to do damage for different classes, not less.
"Less reliance on main stats"- Witchbrew scales with str now (to less dmg with capped str than before the change with 300 str, and to barely any dmg on high toughness targets), so can't skip on main stat.

As for more options for elemental dmg, with physical you only have problem with armor on tanks.

The list of classes which have resist self buffs:
-Chosen
-Sham
-Zealot
-BO
-Sorc (a short duration one)

Now here is the catch- anyone teamed with any of the first 4 also has the resists buff. Or- anyone who uses resist lini (+360 all resists) now has an extra 21.4% mitigation vs you, which stacks with base resists, and with toughness mitigation.

In other words, with physical dmg, and with having both armor debuff and ws armor pen, you are having a fun time vs anything which isn't tank- no way to buff armor beyond the base pot, unless someone sacrifices tali slots for armor, and even then cloth wearers won't mitigate much.

From other hand, with ele dmg and without resists debuff, any in the list above, anyone teamed with them, or anyone who uses resists lini, has a 40% mitigation vs you which you can't debuff, as a baseline. But then there is the toughness mitigation on top- so vs anything with high toughness as well, expect 80%+ actual mitigation.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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Farrul
Posts: 491

Re: Is WH part of Class balance/review?

Post#39 » Sat Nov 02, 2024 9:49 am

Zxul wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 3:20 am "Less reliance on main stats"- Witchbrew scales with str now (to less dmg with capped str than before the change with 300 str, and to barely any dmg on high toughness targets), so can't skip on main stat.
He was obviously referring to stat(s) (plural) meaning no reliance on weapon skill, which is a huge advantage for magic damage compared to physical, not least when it comes to building stats with items since again one does not have to build weapon skill with item budget or tactic slots occupied for the purpose and can just rely upon str.
Zxul wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 3:20 amAs for more options for elemental dmg, with physical you only have problem with armor on tanks.

Now here is the catch- anyone teamed with any of the first 4 also has the resists buff. Or- anyone who uses resist lini (+360 all resists) now has an extra 21.4% mitigation vs you, which stacks with base resists, and with toughness mitigation.
Are you aware that resistance is soft-caped at 40% ? On a bis toon the liniment is approx 11-% mitigation ( up from 30 to 41 ish %).

With elemental danage as an option the WH would have access to approx 60% penetration vs prepared targets (liniment) or 70-80% vs unprepared targets, hence it would be a better class to play which is what he was referring to since magic-> physical in this game. As there are class resistance buffs there are also class resistance debuffs to further increase effectiveness of magic ( like for example a WH attacking someone under the influence of a knight debuff aura, BW debuff etc).
Zxul wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 3:20 amIn other words, with physical dmg, and with having both armor debuff and ws armor pen, you are having a fun time vs anything which isn't tank- no way to buff armor beyond the base pot, unless someone sacrifices tali slots for armor, and even then cloth wearers won't mitigate much.
Are you not aware that there are % armor reduction items in this game(fleshrender, sov items , liniment etc)? Like for example on my SM i have 18-20% armor penetration reduction on top of 5k armor, which i could increase to 23-25% using a liniment, that mean the bleeding edge tactic/blessed blade tactic are more or less nulified by these items, have fun now with a WH hitting a chosen ( which will use a similar setup to my SM) with base 400 WS and burn armor lasting a short time.

Medium armor classes ? Mara has better mitigation vs phys than even tanks if they so want and Doks are self-healing with a few talis 4k armor + % reduction items, i guess that leaves Choppas, yes WH can kill choppas and vice versa.

Cloth wearers are the only exception where physical is actually decent (but only in theory since both shamans/magus are OP roaming classes better than a wh), but even there using armor talismans, blue pot( 8xx armor) is way more meta than using the resistance liniment( which few players bother with) and the WH would not need to worry about WS or the blessed blade tactic( which is hard to get for a BAl build if it doesn't skip important abilities on the tree or use the +2 sov bonus, sacrificing important set bonus).

Although i could agree magic damage wouldn't fix WH vs these classes since they're OP anyways and he will be easily kited/detaunted/cc, generally though elemental dps would help the class perform better ( which is what i believe panzer was talking about).
Zxul wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2024 3:20 amFrom other hand, with ele dmg and without resists debuff, any in the list above, anyone teamed with them, or anyone who uses resists lini, has a 40% mitigation vs you which you can't debuff, as a baseline. But then there is the toughness mitigation on top- so vs anything with high toughness as well, expect 80%+ actual mitigation.
Good so it seems you are aware of the resistance softcap after all? :) Then 60% penetration( 40 res) without having to invest into any WS or a tactic high up in the opposite tree results in a more effective/versatile WH class overall, even in solo without a debuff but in groups or random roam encounters there will be debuffs further boosting magic damage levels. If WH need to rely upon physical damage they need a boost penetration, the nerf from 50->25 on blessed blade crippled the class vs anyone in the def meta that is roaming ( meaning not random playes in vanq gear).

P.S. Toughness works all the same vs physical so there is no advantage/disadvantage.

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Sinisterror
Posts: 893

Re: Is WH part of Class balance/review?

Post#40 » Sat Nov 02, 2024 10:44 am

Reduced Armour Penetration is very strong stat. I dont exactly remember how dmg,mitigation etc all that Formula's worked in Aor but I know that Toughness 500 toughness takes 1000str basically to 500 str. Sounds very strong to me and one of the reasons why the 50% Bleeding edge/Blessed Blade is needed and i wrongly advocated its nerf to 33% or so.

But i know that original Formula had Special Abilities that doubled your Offensive Stat and doubled enemy toughness as well. That made Toughness worth it because it wasnt clear what the special abilities always were but Bal was one of them. Probably all you specced skills + some your cores. Also if you dropped below certain lvl of Iniative everything was a crit. Sounds like important enough stat as it was in the original formulas.

Anyway Crit is so nerfed both the dmg from crits + the amount of crit you can have. 45renown points for 14% Crit and 45renown points for 24% Crit Reduction. Just add the Sove Crit/Crit dmg 10/20% To all Classes back (Or worn sove but it would be 8% Crit and 15% Crit dmg or something :D) There really is not much left for melee physical dmg espesially. Ranged AA's are super under appreciated so there isnt a huge issue there + all ranged now deal like bw/sorc lvl dmg... Why?

And its nerfed to 85% from 100% ... when it should be possible espesially as bw/sorc have access to Staff with either Boost V/VI and the Sove on top of that. Trivial Blows exist, just throw away the - Crit Reduction from RR.

Does the now ror formula have special skills that have double offensive stat and double enemy toughness? even if it is toughness is so powerful that it could be very negated but at least if there is Skills like Bal should actually hurt doesnt matter how much defense you have that negates it
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

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