[Discussion/Feedback] The Armor Project

[th3gatekeeper]

Cloth armor is 1200 man.
It's around 3200 if you max out armor in every possible way.

Yeah, I was looking at the wrong classes armor set, adjusted my above post. But... Lets take the cloth armor class then.

1200 armor -> 3200 armor.

1200 - 1400 = 0%. So he takes FULL damage regardless of ARP.
3200 - 1400 = 1800, which I dont have numbers for but should be ~38%? - 20% ARP = 30.4% mitigation.

So it gets even WORSE.

CURRENT:
6000 HP @ 30.4% mitigation = 8,620 EHP.
vs 6000 HP @ 0% mitigation = 6,000 EHP (So armor increased this by 43.6%!!!!!)
= 2.6k HP difference = 260 Wounds!!!


NEW:
1200 - 1400 = 0%. So he takes FULL damage regardless of ARP.
3200 - 1400 = 1800, which I dont have numbers for but should be ~38%? - 20% ARP = 18% mitigation.


6000 HP @ 18% mitigation = 7317 EHP
vs 6000 HP @ 0% mitigation = 6000 EHP (So armor increased this by 21.6%)
= 1.3k HP difference = 130 Wounds (Which you can almost get with 5 talis ANYWAYS) So... it makes armor more "on par" with every other stat....


Now, if this makes things too squishy, this is where you can start beefing up OTHER things but this brings armor inline with other stats TO be able to beef them up.... Frankly.. Seeing these numbers a light armor player can largely ignore armor pots/talis/buffs as after a max debuff AND decent ARP... the player will cut them down to a LOW% anyways which you can get jus tas much EHP from other stats - which is the GOAL of this: Bring Armor into line with other stats.

This math just proves it does just that!

[K13R]

Cloth armor is 1200 man.

It's around 3200 if you max out armor in every possible way.
Armor debuff -1400, weaponskill pen 40%. Effective armor 1080.

Not stacking armor. 1800 armor
-1400 armor debuff weaponskill 40%, effective armor 240.

So after debuff and ws youre back to your orginal armor amount if you go whole ass survival mode.

[th3gatekeeper]

You people are crazy, healers stack armor cause its the only way to survive. Its not cause the main stat sucks. You wont survive without. Let's say your rocking your fresh minted shammy 1200 armor. You get pounced and armor debuffed down to zero armor kd and rick rolled. Now if you have a 660 armor pot and 6 piece 150 armor talis you have 1560 armor which is close to 30% and you have 50/50 chane to survive that pounce debuff kd lf cs rotation zero chance with out it. Wonder why destro lacks healers extreme cost on armor talis which were not even that expensive on live and the WL of death. If you nerf armor than the cheap burst needs to go also..

I 100% agree with the "cheap burst" problem. But you have to look at "step 1" which is "adjusting armor to be on par or MORE on par with other defensive stats... to THEN.... look at increasing the value of defensive stats.

Which you can then start looking at nerfing some sources of damage to compensate (like WL for instance).

But... All this goes back to my OP.

there's a defensive stat that actually needs bringing into line, and that stat sure ain't Toughness (hint: it's armor)

This is how you accomplish it: Make it additive, not multiplicative.

What you do AFTER that, to compensate for some "survivability loss" on lower armor players... Well thats up to you. If they want to increase the value of willpower, or value of toughness (which is where I would look first) as well as initiative, as well as restricting things like "crit" in renown... Etc. Those are all good ideas...

But the purpose of this thread was looking at ONE aspect: Armor. And doing as Az said above "bringing it into line" and the BEST way to accomplish this IMO is via its "counter stat": ARP.

Toughness/Initiative are two places that could pick up some of the "load" in terms of tankiness. You could modify Initiative to have a higher rate of return (so it requires less to get to 0% chance to be crit) would be 1 start.

You could also do the same with toughness. So that Initiative/Toughness become ~ as good as armor which would ALL be options.


HECK: One easy option would be this:

Field of Glory: Increases your Wounds/Toughness/Initiative by 10% as WELL as the EXP increase blah blah.

Because largely "tankiness" in Scenarios is fine as it is right now... But in RVR is where the problem lies...

So all you need to do: Adjust ARP - which nerfs armor, which you can then increase everyones Wounds/Toughness/Initiative by 10% or something while in RVR - which now gives people ways to combat "burst" damage in RVR.

Just ONE idea

[th3gatekeeper]

Cloth armor is 1200 man.

It's around 3200 if you max out armor in every possible way.
Armor debuff -1400, weaponskill pen 40%. Effective armor 1080.

Not stacking armor. 1800 armor
-1400 armor debuff weaponskill 40%, effective armor 240.

So after debuff and ws youre back to your orginal armor amount if you go whole ass survival mode.

This is the sole problem. "whole ass survival mode" SHOULDNT be "armor stacking"

This is the exact problem that needs to go.

"Whole Ass survival mode" should be wounds/toughness/initiative AND armor stacking...

Right now people largely ditch the others, because the return on armor is too great. You cant buff those other things without FIRST "nerfing" the stacking of armor.

[roadkillrobin]

I dunno how many times i need to point this out. Armor isn't overpeforming it's a nescesity coz the other stats arn't effective.

[Bozzax]

Armor isn't overpeforming it's a nescesity coz the other stats arn't effective.

Simple as that

When 250 weapon skill, ini or willpow yields 2% or so avoidance ... hmmm

[Aurandilaz]

You people are crazy, healers stack armor cause its the only way to survive. Its not cause the main stat sucks. You wont survive without. Let's say your rocking your fresh minted shammy 1200 armor. You get pounced and armor debuffed down to zero armor kd and rick rolled. Now if you have a 660 armor pot and 6 piece 150 armor talis you have 1560 armor which is close to 30% and you have 50/50 chane to survive that pounce debuff kd lf cs rotation zero chance with out it. Wonder why destro lacks healers extreme cost on armor talis which were not even that expensive on live and the WL of death. If you nerf armor than the cheap burst needs to go also..

yup

any change to armour values should also result in changes in the most commonly used and the strongest armour debuffs; WL + Mara who currently have insane burst, which can only be countered by insane armour stacking and even then you are barely surviving.
High armour debuff ---> victim starts stacking armour ----> armour becomes a must-have -----> mdps that do not have similar armour debuffs fall behind -----> classes with low armour lack behind compared to better armoured classes -----> game meta ends up revolving around armour stacking and debuffing

which essentially is nothing new tbqh

[th3gatekeeper]

I dunno how many times i need to point this out. Armor isn't overpeforming it's a nescesity coz the other stats arn't effective.

Armor isnt over performing, the others arent effective enough? So your solution is merely buff the other stats, so they are on par with armor? because if that was the goal, you would need to do something like DOUBLE the stat values or worth of other stats, maybe more, to give the same "mitigation" that armor offers.

All that does is increase tankiness for everyone across the board by lessening players damage eeven more, creating a further gap between physical and non physical damage. Players wont just stack armor, they will stack armor AND other stats. Because you wont need to heal for anything if you dont take any damage....

The issue is armor is over performing, and at the same time, the other stats are not as effective.
Also from a mere "logic" standpoint. If I can penetrate 30% of "plate armor" why can I only penetrate 30% of cloth armor? That also doesnt make any sense. If my "skill with weapons" is good enough to bypass a chunk of plate armor, it should be good enough to completely "bypass" cloth....

I also doint think we need more "avoidance" stats (by beefing up WS/Ini/Willpower) I think those can stay as is, for now..

I think your going to have a very hard time just "making everyone tankier"... I mean... frankly... Healers are already pretty damn tanky and can outheal a tank + mdps beating on them WITH a heal debuff and without guard... Now, you get a solid melee train and no guard and ya.. healers will drop pretty fast...

So, I have to disagree. My math above shows that the impact of armor IS over performing. You can stack armor and get (in the math I did) a 40% increase to your EHP with 5 talis (not maxed) and 1 armor pot? Thats a pretty insane "EHP boost". Compared to damage? If I were to use 1 STR pot and use 5 STR talis, do I get a 40% damage boost? No.... Ill get something in the range of maybe 10%-15% more damage.

So I dont see how you can say "armor is not over performing" when it completely is over performing.

[Bozzax]

6000 HP @ 18% mitigation = 7317 EHP
vs 6000 HP @ 0% mitigation = 6000 EHP (So armor increased this by 21.6%)
= 1.3k HP difference = 130 Wounds (Which you can almost get with 5 talis ANYWAYS) So... it makes armor more "on par" with every other stat

Fire, spirit and corp ..,

Maybe redo your math

[th3gatekeeper]

You people are crazy, healers stack armor cause its the only way to survive. Its not cause the main stat sucks. You wont survive without. Let's say your rocking your fresh minted shammy 1200 armor. You get pounced and armor debuffed down to zero armor kd and rick rolled. Now if you have a 660 armor pot and 6 piece 150 armor talis you have 1560 armor which is close to 30% and you have 50/50 chane to survive that pounce debuff kd lf cs rotation zero chance with out it. Wonder why destro lacks healers extreme cost on armor talis which were not even that expensive on live and the WL of death. If you nerf armor than the cheap burst needs to go also..

yup

any change to armour values should also result in changes in the most commonly used and the strongest armour debuffs; WL + Mara who currently have insane burst, which can only be countered by insane armour stacking and even then you are barely surviving.
High armour debuff ---> victim starts stacking armour ----> armour becomes a must-have -----> mdps that do not have similar armour debuffs fall behind -----> classes with low armour lack behind compared to better armoured classes -----> game meta ends up revolving around armour stacking and debuffing

which essentially is nothing new tbqh

I am onboard with reducing armor debuffs to be "on par" with other stats.

I mean roughly a +20 tali = what, a +120 armor tali? So that should be the proper ratio...

So this means.... If a +75 or -75 "buff debuff" is the norm. A "lesser" (BOs for example) armor debuff should be changed to (75/20*120) = ~450 reduced armor.

Then a "better" armor debuff is how much in stats? 120 worth? 120/20*120 = 720 armor debuff for things like the Mara.

So these would be the new values: 450 reduced armor for something like Wot Armor? And -720 armor for something like Cutting Claw.

However I do worry about this "buffing" armor again, however with an additive "weapon skill" this would allow for armor to have a counter stat.