Petition for Devastator Set 5pc bonus change

[mursie]

Vivacious only procs off direct heals, but that doesn't really change your ordering.

Woops - i picked that up on one of your threads. Thought it said "on hit 10% chance for 50 AP"... so darn.. remove that from the list. In that case 4-3-1-5

regarding AP on wl's - yes, they are somewhat AP starved. (although with a WW SM in your group, their AP usage becomes much more reasonable due to decreased cost of Lion's Fury).

Clarity is better than corrosion imo for WL - but yes, i'd rather have guile.

I look at it like this: Four piece dev is on. Do you wear piece five for the proc or a 2% melee crit piece from stalker/t3 influence.

Thus, would you rather have 2% melee crit... or clarity/guile/corrosion/overwhelming.

Clearly, with one of your mandatory tactics being tied to crit... crit is huge. So crit over corrosion is no brainer.

2% crit vs. clarity... tough to say when the average ability of WL is 30'ish AP. And that's only 10% of the time that proc is up. I'd still maybe lean towards crit.

2% crit vs. overwhelming - interesting. Would require testing. Could open up flanking instead of BF on tactic line. This is definitely an option and one worth playing around with.

now 2% crit vs. guile (inc hd). Now we're really talking interesting trade offs. Now we're talking options.. This is something to think about... imo.

Something for all to consider is - BIS gear. Yes guile is good... but it costs the WL 2% melee crit they could get from a non dev piece. This needs to be considered.

[mursie]

I'm sorry. I feel like I was rambling a bit in the previous post but there is a major point of consideration, for all classes, that I want to stress when discussing procs.

The issue, imo, is this: For just about all classes, 4 pc. devastator is the best gear you can have.. it usually contains a main stat buff and 5% crit. (exceptions would be the choppa/slayer and the Squig/SW, i'll get to these in a moment).

For the majority then - the fifth piece of BIS gear is currently either a 2% crit piece from stalker/T3 influence helm or the decision to wear 5pc. devastator.

When discussing procs, I think it is important to discuss weighing the trade-offs of BIS gear. The proc alone, by itself, is not the entire story. As such, for just about all classes, to have the fifth piece be dev over the 2% crit piece, the proc needs to be pretty damn good, otherwise - no one will wear it. I would find this to be a bit of a travesty especially considering:
1. the work Genis has put into the sets
2. the inherent notion that Devastator is the top tier BIS t3 gear set requiring the most time/effort to acquire atm.

As for squig/sw - they currently have a very strong 3pc stalker (stat/crit) 2pc dev (stat) that makes taking 5pc dev really really tough to do unless it somehow is extremely strong. The tradeoff is huge.

For choppa/slayer - they currently get no 4pc crit (just a reduced chance to be parried which is sorta meh imho). For them, the 3pc stalker 2 pc dev (stat/wound) and (stat) is also really tough to give up unless the proc is huge.

TL:DR - procs on the dev gear (which should be BIS gear for this level) need to be weighed against the tradeoff of other BIS gear. For most this simply comes down to 2% crit vs. the proc.

[TenTonHammer]

TL:DR - procs on the dev gear (which should be BIS gear for this level) need to be weighed against the tradeoff of other BIS gear. For most this simply comes down to 2% crit vs. the proc.

Exactly which is why i feel that duelist choppa needs something much better that barrier, a 100 - 200 dmg absord is hilariously bad especially in the current environment where most AA alone hit in the 100-200 and is easily outshined by dat tickles making most choppa players prefer % crit gear or something

id rather there be a free 0 ap cost proc or something as the effect

[Genisaurus]

id rather there be a free 0 ap cost proc or something as the effect

So Clarity on the SL/CH Duelist set? I feel like I had given that to them once, but removed it. Maybe for not being defensive enough? I don't recall. I don't have a problem with this, but I might like to hear some consensus first.

Mursie:

I don't disagree, but I think sometimes that too much weight is given to crit%. It's good, but it's not always more valuable in terms of DPS. I've mentioned this before, but a 5% increased chance to crit only amounts to about a 2.4% increase in damage. Meanwhile, 5% parry strikethrough is about a 5.5% increase in damage.

In other words, we all like seeing big numbers more often, but a 5% greater chance to do 50% more damage (only if you hit!) is generally less valuable than a 5% increased chance of doing >100% damage. Approximately half as valuable. Additionally, the value of parry strikethrough goes up the more parry your opponent has, though it goes down if you have more strikethrough than they have parry. Melee crit is always just as valuable, but offers diminishing returns to your overall DPS.

Math:

Spoiler:

100 damage average, 10% chance to crit vs. 10% chance to parry

(.9 * 100) + (.1 * 150) = 105 dps
105 * 0.9 = 94.5 dps

100 damage average, 15% chance to crit vs. 10% chance to parry

(.85 * 100) + (.15 * 150) = 107.5 dps
.9 * 107.5 = 96.75
2.38% increase

100 damage average, 10% chance to crit vs. 5% chance to parry

(.9 * 100) + (.1 * 150) = 105 dps
105 * 0.95 = 99.75 dps
5.5% increase

---------------------------------------------------------------

100 damage average, 10% chance to crit vs. 30% chance to parry

(.9 * 100) + (.1 * 150) = 105 dps
105 * 0.7 = 73.5 dps

100 damage average, 15% chance to crit vs. 30% chance to parry

(.85 * 100) + (.15 * 150) = 107.5 dps
.7 * 107.5 = 75.25 dps
2.38% increase

100 damage average, 10% chance to crit vs. 25% chance to parry

(.9 * 100) + (.1 * 150) = 105 dps
105 * 0.75 = 78.75 dps
7.1% increase

---------------------------------------------------------------

100 damage average, 20% chance to crit vs. 10% chance to parry
(.8 * 100) + (.2 * 150) = 110 dps
.9 * 110 = 99 dps

100 damage average, 25% chance to crit vs. 10% chance to parry
(.75 * 100) + (.25 * 150) = 112.5 dps
.9 * 112.5 = 101.25
2.27% increase

100 damage average, 20% chance to crit vs. 5% chance to parry
(.8 * 100) + (.2 * 150) = 110 dps
.95 * 110 = 104.5
5.5% increase

That being said, there's an argument to be made for sustained damage vs. burst, and procs that fire off of crits, vs. procs that fire off of any hit, etc. In the end, I'm not dissatisfied with the 4pc set bonus. I can understand why some people might want to go to Stalker for the 5% crit, but I don't think it's a choice I would make. Consider too, that Stalker set offers 40% less raw stats than Devastator/Duelist.

As for whether the proc is worth 2% crit... the Overwhelming proc can be refreshed, and adds about 18 more tooltip damage ([60 / 5] * 1.5 coefficient). That's probably a bigger increase than the 3% overall increase that the 2% crit is going to add. Clarity, because it has a chance to proc off each hit, not each ability use, is going to be very effective for AoE CH/SL. Both procs add more sustained damage instead of a slightly higher chance of doing burst.

WLs are another topic altogether. Giving them an incoming HD is a bigger ask than giving them Clarity. Besides giving them access to something they don't have in any other spec, it would make them the only class I can think of (honestly haven't fact-checked this) that has both an incoming and outgoing heal-debuff. Not that anyone runs Thin the Herd.

[TenTonHammer]

So Clarity on the SL/CH Duelist set? I feel like I had given that to them once, but removed it. Maybe for not being defensive enough? I don't recall. I don't have a problem with this, but I might like to hear some consensus first.

in retrospect i might have spoken too soon, clarity is not as useful due to the fact that we want a defensive bonus for the set


what about these other options
preservation
domination
bracing
reactionary?

Any one of those would be far better options than barrier

please consider them, i think reactionary would be best

[mursie]

WLs are another topic altogether. Giving them an incoming HD is a bigger ask than giving them Clarity. Besides giving them access to something they don't have in any other spec, it would make them the only class I can think of (honestly haven't fact-checked this) that has both an incoming and outgoing heal-debuff. Not that anyone runs Thin the Herd.

excellent post - alot to digest. appreciate your feedback

choppa will have access to both debuffs.

[TenTonHammer]

No more helpin is not so great an ability, it requires 2h, blows you rage requiring you to become even squishier by running wot rules and is made completely irrelevant in groups by bgs no cool down 50%+ outgoing debuff it barely worth specing

[Genisaurus]

WLs are another topic altogether. Giving them an incoming HD is a bigger ask than giving them Clarity. Besides giving them access to something they don't have in any other spec, it would make them the only class I can think of (honestly haven't fact-checked this) that has both an incoming and outgoing heal-debuff. Not that anyone runs Thin the Herd.

I always ran thin the herd.....

http://waronlinebuilder.org/#career=wl; ... :4262:4272:

Also in the right setup when the stars align you could get a 100% heal debuff on the WH on live with punish the false, blessed bullets of confession and Guile proc. I dont have a full set of devastator so cant test here but I seem to recall a dev on live confirming this.

Fair enough - I was talking about the current state, but you have a point for T4. I guess if you wanted to go up Axeman, there's literally nothing else to spend points on. Though you could drop it and get Joy of the Hunt

Anywho, you might very well be correct about the stacking. That being said, many of the possible stacking options from live are impossible for us to test with just the client, so we made a conscious decision to declare a hard and fast rule about how these procs would stack. Once we get the ability to adjust them or make our own in the future, it will give us a much stronger guideline for judging the relative power of procs, and how in/appropriate they might be for a given class.

[mursie]

I don't disagree, but I think sometimes that too much weight is given to crit%. It's good, but it's not always more valuable in terms of DPS. I've mentioned this before, but a 5% increased chance to crit only amounts to about a 2.4% increase in damage. Meanwhile, 5% parry strikethrough is about a 5.5% increase in damage.

So I've given your post some thought, and I still hold to my conclusion. First, I don't think your math includes the crit tactics that most if not all mdps are using. Aside from that, it also is somewhat fundamentally flawed in that it doesn't take into account two very important things:

1. The targets of priority should / will have very little parry (clothies)

2. All targets for mdps (especially wh, but all mdps really) should be hit from the back. The goal is always "from the back". Thus, I'm hoping you never parry me anyways, because I'm not trying to hit you face on where you can parry. This is even more important in t4 when flanking is on every bar... (currently, only high end gear sets and group buffs allow some to run this - if at all).

Bottom line - I believe crit is significant. And when talking about 4pc dev and 2% crit from a non dev piece... or 5pc dev with a proc... (so 2% crit or dev proc)... I still hold that this is the tradeoff that must be evaluated and weighed when discussing the proc. If you don't believe the proc is substantial enough to forego 2% crit... then I highly encourage that we look for a different proc.

The Goal should be a "tough choice" for the player when decided the BIS gear for t3. especially after all your gear set work. If the proc is garbage.. no one will use it...especially when it foregos 2% crit.

I'll stop beating the deadhorse because I think we are on the same page regarding the goal. As it stands, corrosion is clearly not benefiting the WL and marked is not helping Squig/SW.

I still believe that for CH/SL and Squig/SW, it will be difficult to ever switch to 5pc. for squig, even with your reworked stats... 5pc dev was a nerf to core offensive stats (I was losing 30+ main stat to pick up 10 wounds, 7 weapon skill when switching between 3/2 stalk/dev to 5pc dev)

Thanks for your time.

[TenTonHammer]

def set for choppas atleast were standard procedure back on live and using duelist with str tallies and stuff is pretty good and compensates for the squishy-ness for dont wanna live for eva if the bonus was reactionary then i would use 5 piece