Return of Reckoning

Destined for Victory is most likely the chosen tactic order whines the most about, but it is actuallly not that good. If you play with Immaculate Defense wich lasts 10sec wich means you have 50sec downtime and even with two tanks running this there is still a 40sec downtime window.
it is a nice thing to save your team for a moment, give them some breathing room, but what then? Order cant do anything during this, so they can also save their breath atleast on their DDs and then start bursting again. You dont win as much as you might think

I think you're underselling Destined for Victory a little bit here. It is, without a doubt, one of the main advantages Destro has over Order. Having your M4 up every minute reliably is pretty damn good. And with two tanks running the morale pump tactics (one could, and probably is, a Black Orc), you have 20 seconds where your whole group essentially cannot die. Is it the be-all, end-all of abilities? No, perhaps not. But, it is without a doubt one of the best tactics to which any tank in the game has access, and one of the only major advantages Chosen has over Knight. Yes, they can burst you afterwards. But you have 10-20 seconds in which you cannot be burst. Don't tell me you can't think of the advantage that gives you in giving, and escaping, pressure.

Well if the tactics discussion is going on, i would also like to throw my hat into the ring and ask a question.
I want to give DFV a shot and am thinking what tactic to kick out of the rotation for that?
I am currently using WF, Rugged, MD and FA, i mostly play pug rvr, so please adjust to that. Saw some huge discussions over weither WF or FA was the way to go (no idea how it ended), so im thinking of throwing FA out.

Also, second question, is tzeentchs reflection still a thing? I use it at the moment and really like it, to give the tank a bit of an anti mage feeling. I also played with AP aura for some time, but now specced to HealDebuf and reflection.

Thanks for your advice in advance!

th3gatekeeper wrote:

Spoiler:

To each his own. I just like armor because it makes SUCH a difference on Phys damage. without going into uber detail (which I have done in other threads) armor gets better and better the more you have. You can use up 3-4 tali slots for armor - which would cost ~ 60-80 stat. So it wont "cost" that much to get, but literally those 4-5 talis (~375-500 armor?) will provide a significant boost in tankiness against Phys damage. Especially when you pair it with 2pc Ruin (Gloves+Shoulders) you can get 5k armor (after adding a potion) which really does make the phys damage you take NOTHING... Its really a joke and IMO armor could use a balance pass.

So for me, its cost/reward. The cost isnt huge and reward is great. Especialyl when you consider that its (ROUGH MATH) around 15 STR = 1% damage... or 600-800 HP... or 60-80 Tough... Just seems worth it to me.

You can min/max in various ways, yes.

Just a note in regards to 15 = STR = 1% damage*, 800HP** and 60-80 toughness*** for the OP:

* That is without strikethrough and toughness rework factored in - i.e. really <rough> math.
That semi-statweight will differ alot from class to class aswell.
** 800HP is an incredible increase in HP, all things considered (current bursts, TTK, ...) and will counteract <every> kind of damage, especially morale dmg which cannot be mitigated by the means of armor/toughness or prevented via avoidance.
Its statweight will differ from class to class, too ~ given certain tactics and 'magic' tresholds you want to sit at/close to, to survive various bursts.
*** toughness in general <can>, by virtue of the rework it has received, outperform armor/wounds depending on the diffrent levels of access the classes have to the stat - as it directly counteracts mainstat (it will net you generally more mitigation as it comes to casts/channels/dots due to the various coefficients, iirc) and mitigates every kind of damage; physical and magical.

Armor is arguably the safest bet for destro classes, especially if you are not planning on running with multiple gearsets in your bag to swap on the run or within a fix (or otherwise organized) group, considering the majority of order dps deals in physical damage.
A min/max of armor+toughness <might> yield you the best mitigation - compared to pure armorstack - with the bit in regards to coefficients taken into account - especially on a BG that can easily softcap toughness without sacrificing much for it.

The ultimately safest best: build around your group - having a fix group helps <alot>, especially with gear and talisman economy as it generally limits the amount of things you have to account for (or allows you to <completly> neglect others in specific cases) whilst building your spec.
[^ Pugshepherding, <3]

Abbd.:

Haskr wrote:Well if the tactics discussion is going on, i would also like to throw my hat into the ring and ask a question.
I want to give DFV a shot and am thinking what tactic to kick out of the rotation for that?
I am currently using WF, Rugged, MD and FA, i mostly play pug rvr, so please adjust to that. Saw some huge discussions over weither WF or FA was the way to go (no idea how it ended), so im thinking of throwing FA out.

Also, second question, is tzeentchs reflection still a thing? I use it at the moment and really like it, to give the tank a bit of an anti mage feeling. I also played with AP aura for some time, but now specced to HealDebuf and reflection.

Thanks for your advice in advance!

First of all, do you mean WF as in Warped Flesh? o.O
I didn't knew/thought people would run that outside dedicated bubble comps.
Abbd.: No offense intended, just general curiosity - did anything change on RoR to make it worth it outside of bubble comps?

Priority of tactics from keeping to tossing - in my opinion:
MD > FA == R > WF

Abbd.: ^ Without taking into account what you face, that is.

Abbd.: You'd be best off paying attention to what kind of comp your enemies run.
If its IB(10%)/SW(15%)/KotBs(5%/10%, snb/2h) => very crit heavy, especially if the KotBS runs 2h - then every instance of crit stacks.
If its SW + 2h KotBs // IB + SW => high crit.
If its IB + snb KotBs => moderate crit.
If its just one of those => few crit.

So depending on what of that you face the return of FA drastically changes.
Abbd.:
It arguably yields the best return if you aren't facing crit heavy comps, considering every inidebuff will have your chance to be crit rocket through the roof anyways.
This in addition to the critfeed will make is nigh impossible to counteract crit one way or another.

Abbd.: R adds to WF potency, given the way damage is passing through bubbles, iirc -fyi.

E: Words and stuff.

First of all, do you mean WF as in Warped Flesh? o.O
I didn't knew/thought people would run that outside dedicated bubble comps.
Abbd.: No offense intended, just general curiosity - did anything change on RoR to make it worth it outside of bubble comps?

Priority of tactics from keeping to tossing, in my opinion that is:
MD > FA == R > WF


E: Words and stuff.

Ye, WF is warped flesh, its very helpfull if you have no reliable heal.
Took in DFV for now, lets see how i fare

Still be interested in opinions about tzeentchs reflection though, so if some pros out there have something to say, you have been summoned!

Haskr wrote:

First of all, do you mean WF as in Warped Flesh? o.O
I didn't knew/thought people would run that outside dedicated bubble comps.
Abbd.: No offense intended, just general curiosity - did anything change on RoR to make it worth it outside of bubble comps?

Priority of tactics from keeping to tossing, in my opinion that is:
MD > FA == R > WF


E: Words and stuff.

Ye, WF is warped flesh, its very helpfull if you have no reliable heal.
Took in DFV for now, lets see how i fare

Still be interested in opinions about tzeentchs reflection though, so if some pros out there have something to say, you have been summoned!

In my opinion it bears the potential of **** you over by gifting your enemies free immunities, considering that you cannot properly control the silence.
If you run in a coordinated warband you might ruin otherwise timed CC for avoidance that you could get with HtL*.

The disrupt is quite fancy though - its something for roaming and scenarios (which would still leave you at a disadvantage against any level of coordinated play).

Abbd.: *And with that something for some variation of 2h spec, I figure.
Abbd.: It make for a "great" (meh) escape tool in the lakes - stagger for mdps, silence for some rdps. However, keep in mind stagger and silence are on the same immunity.
Abbd.: You could go ahead and do some testing to see whether on RoR some skills are handeld as spells which should not be, it wouldn't yield you any benefit applying a silence to a Slayer or the likes, though... - for science.
Abbd.: Keep in mind: you can only disrupt BW/AM/RP, theres basiclly no other class dealing in offensive spells, it'd leave you vulnerable to pretty much every other kind of dps.

TLDR: TR => solo/duo roam tool. TR + SE as escape tool. Sorc AoE silence is generally more reliable, TR <could> be used to shutdown BW bombing, kd is generally more reliable in singletarget situations. You'll hardly ever be the target of lifetaps/BW rotations, so thats not a feasible approach either.

Abbd.: In regards to WF: iIs something you normally run in dedicated bubble groups as mentioned above. You can get a ridicoulus amount of bubbles floating around on destro - look at the toolsets of the classes. It used to be a semi-viable gimmick on live.
Abbd.: I could imagine the bubble gimmick to be more viable on RoR, considering the lack of ridiculous numbers and the bubble proc on some of the gearsets available - that don't have an ICD on them (source for the lack of ICD: Torque) - and the potency of avoidance that'd allow to a better uptime/refreshing of bubbles in general.

E: Words and stuff.

ap aura, tough, resists

tri spec... ap aura, knockdown, quake

destined for victory, superpunt, -crit% chance, unstoppable juggernaugt. thats for small scale. there is some changing based on situation... in zerg busting situations i'd run rugged instead of superpunt maybe.

max block, then parry and d/d

adjust your UI with enemy to make sure you find your party members fast. learn to guard switch fast, to punt in the right direction, and when to stagger.

Thats pretty much it to get started. There is a debate about going 2h for the block strike through to help get your punt off on the opposing kobs, but overall I think the above build is the safest. I dont play anymore but I still have a couple of vids of premade days where I talk exclusively about what I'm doing. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy-vhQ ... O0nCn-p2Pg

GodlessCrom wrote:I think you're underselling Destined for Victory a little bit here. It is, without a doubt, one of the main advantages Destro has over Order. Having your M4 up every minute reliably is pretty damn good. And with two tanks running the morale pump tactics (one could, and probably is, a Black Orc), you have 20 seconds where your whole group essentially cannot die. Is it the be-all, end-all of abilities? No, perhaps not. But, it is without a doubt one of the best tactics to which any tank in the game has access, and one of the only major advantages Chosen has over Knight. Yes, they can burst you afterwards. But you have 10-20 seconds in which you cannot be burst. Don't tell me you can't think of the advantage that gives you in giving, and escaping, pressure.

Underselling it would mean, that i am completly convinced by that tactic, wich is not the case.
10-20sec of not dying is not the "auto-win" button people sell it for and it is not "one of the only major advatages Chosen has ober Knight" (this sentence alone doesnt make much sense, but i get what you mean) it is THE ONLY advantage Chosen has over Knight.
Your last two sentences contradict each other, so what is the point? Escape pressure just to die afterwards? That is exactly the point im trying to make. A M4 here and there won't do the job, there is a lot more of beeing a good Tank.

Panzerkasper wrote:

GodlessCrom wrote:I think you're underselling Destined for Victory a little bit here. It is, without a doubt, one of the main advantages Destro has over Order. Having your M4 up every minute reliably is pretty damn good. And with two tanks running the morale pump tactics (one could, and probably is, a Black Orc), you have 20 seconds where your whole group essentially cannot die. Is it the be-all, end-all of abilities? No, perhaps not. But, it is without a doubt one of the best tactics to which any tank in the game has access, and one of the only major advantages Chosen has over Knight. Yes, they can burst you afterwards. But you have 10-20 seconds in which you cannot be burst. Don't tell me you can't think of the advantage that gives you in giving, and escaping, pressure.

Underselling it would mean, that i am completly convinced by that tactic, wich is not the case.
10-20sec of not dying is not the "auto-win" button people sell it for and it is not "one of the only major advatages Chosen has ober Knight" (this sentence alone doesnt make much sense, but i get what you mean) it is THE ONLY advantage Chosen has over Knight.
Your last two sentences contradict each other, so what is the point? Escape pressure just to die afterwards? That is exactly the point im trying to make. A M4 here and there won't do the job, there is a lot more of beeing a good Tank.

If you can't see the advantage of having 10-20 secs of pressure immunity on your group, then I can't help you. I get you like your class, and want to paint it as some sort of underdog against the supposedly imbalanced order classes, but Chosen is the second best tank in the game and its morale pump tactic is a big part of that. DFV isn't an auto-win, but I didn't **** claim that, did I? The point is that having M4 up every minute, and being able to reliably cycle it with another Chosen or a Black Orc, gives your group a lot of options they would not otherwise have. Get a group, get in comms, and go try it. If you're whining about being burst down immediately after your 20 seconds of taking 75% less damage, then your healers and tanks didn't know what they were doing in the first place.

GodlessCrom wrote:If you can't see the advantage of having 10-20 secs of pressure immunity on your group, then I can't help you. I get you like your class, and want to paint it as some sort of underdog against the supposedly imbalanced order classes, but Chosen is the second best tank in the game and its morale pump tactic is a big part of that. DFV isn't an auto-win, but I didn't **** claim that, did I? The point is that having M4 up every minute, and being able to reliably cycle it with another Chosen or a Black Orc, gives your group a lot of options they would not otherwise have. Get a group, get in comms, and go try it. If you're whining about being burst down immediately after your 20 seconds of taking 75% less damage, then your healers and tanks didn't know what they were doing in the first place.

You dont see to know me very well ingame, but i regularly play in strong premade setups with good people behind my and i have also done in the past back on live server. I played a lot solo, i played in warbands, it's not that i play Chosen since yesterday.

So please tell me, what options do you get? Deliver some examples and don't come with these "I know someting you dont know"-posts

panzer is correct on m4. Its good but not great. I'd take kobs toolkit in a heartbeat. Even straight-up kobs tri-snare tactic vs chosen morale pump tactic I'd rather have the snare. Its a funny thing to say to one of starilas' group to "get on comms". They always have solid organized groups and every time I played with them as a guest they'd have comms.

Remember the other group has comms too and they will call your m4s and back off, regroup, let cooldowns and ap return, OR apply debuffs and save the bursty abilities for the end of m4.



Saith