Return of Reckoning

I am also in the group not liking undefendable or virtual..
I do like the changes but think that maybe an alternative of adding strike though would be appropriate as the whole concept of the tactic is to make the dots more effective rather than making the tactic a must have

Imo undefendable abilities are a bit tad stupid (for all classes, no bias here), the only undefendable skills should be morales and that's all. Avoidance changes were made to end the rdps reign, any implementation of undefendable attacks should be blocked and current existing undefendable skills could have some +strikethrough connected instead of being sure-to-hit abilities.
But that might be my unpopular opinion

In regards to anything undefendable...

What happens if you bring it bulk?
How's the CD/duration looking; what's the uptime?
What's the required setup, if there is any?
What can you pair it up with (e.g.: procs of any kind, w/e)?
How's the application looking?

Mirroring Pierce Defenses/Wildfire/Funnel Power seems reasonable ~

Darosh wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:27 pm In regards to anything undefendable...

What happens if you bring it bulk?
How's the CD/duration looking; what's the uptime?
What's the required setup, if there is any?
What can you pair it up with (e.g.: procs of any kind, w/e)?
How's the application looking?

Mirroring Pierce Defenses/Wildfire/Funnel Power seems reasonable ~

Regarding Ice Spike fluffdots becoming undefendable?
Bulk? You mean you get more than 1 DoT that does 100-300 dmg every 3 sec unless your resis get debuffed and you might see occasional 500 crit because you are unprotected, unbuffed and unhealed pug? If you get two of those DoTs then you probably get 200-600 dmg ticks on 3 sec intervals until a healer cleanses the DoT or places some heal on you so you barely notice it?
IS is not the main Sorc bomb source, that would be IW-DC-SP for the actual dmg, due to IS base damage being far lower closer to the aoe fluffspam dots of engis/magus. If you play Sorc, you know you place 2-3 IS at enemy mass in beginning of fight and hope some of them actually landed and are not cleansed but end up doing some of those 100-300 dmg ticks (on average).
If you have something like 5-10 Sorcs dotting you up, you would maybe die, but then again when you face high number of enemy dps its somewhat likely that any target eventually dies. Same way if you had 5-10 BWs throwing undefendable Fireballs at you, you would probably die.
CD? Atm 0 because you mostly spam IS to build Dark Magic at start of fight, dmg is flufftier, did you even read the OP about how IS functions?
Required setup? ??? Healer so Sorc doesnt suicide?
Pair with the usual procs? 25% Frozen Touch meagre proc hitting between 50-200, Sorc doesn't possess FP/WF so proc chances are more limited.

Maybe it's just my brains being tired but I find it hard to understand what exactly you are asking from me.

and Darosh, at end of my OP I posted image with Enemy damage statistics, with 135000 Ice Spikes hits, the recorded average dmg of both noncrits and crits combined together was a DoT dmg hit of 186. Considering that is about how hard the actually average IS hits (vs solid enemy warbands with high resis from group buffs it would maybe hit less on average, say 120-160 - my Enemy statistics involved a lot of pug bashing encounters moving average upwards).
How many, on average 186 hitting IS dots would it take to kill a tank with 10k wounds or a healer with maybe 6k wounds?
Even if we rounded the average to 200 and say wounds of victim are 6000, you would need 30 IS DoT hits to get that target down, on average. With one IS lasting 15 sec and hitting 5 times, you would have 6 Sorcs DoTting on person up and waiting 15 sec before it actually dies. Under normal conditions those 6 Sorcs would probably just do other spells with actually greater dmg outputs.
It's fluff, but obviously if enough many people spam fluff dmg something eventually dies.

Aurandilaz wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:50 pm

Darosh wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:27 pm In regards to anything undefendable...

What happens if you bring it bulk?
How's the CD/duration looking; what's the uptime?
What's the required setup, if there is any?
What can you pair it up with (e.g.: procs of any kind, w/e)?
How's the application looking?

Mirroring Pierce Defenses/Wildfire/Funnel Power seems reasonable ~

Regarding Ice Spike fluffdots becoming undefendable?
Bulk? You mean you get more than 1 DoT that does 100-300 dmg every 3 sec unless your resis get debuffed and you might see occasional 500 crit because you are unprotected, unbuffed and unhealed pug? If you get two of those DoTs then you probably get 200-600 dmg ticks on 3 sec intervals until a healer cleanses the DoT or places some heal on you so you barely notice it?
IS is not the main Sorc bomb source, that would be IW-DC-SP for the actual dmg, due to IS base damage being far lower closer to the aoe fluffspam dots of engis/magus. If you play Sorc, you know you place 2-3 IS at enemy mass in beginning of fight and hope some of them actually landed and are not cleansed but end up doing some of those 100-300 dmg ticks (on average).
If you have something like 5-10 Sorcs dotting you up, you would maybe die, but then again when you face high number of enemy dps its somewhat likely that any target eventually dies. Same way if you had 5-10 BWs throwing undefendable Fireballs at you, you would probably die.
CD? Atm 0 because you mostly spam IS to build Dark Magic at start of fight, dmg is flufftier, did you even read the OP about how IS functions?
Required setup? ??? Healer so Sorc doesnt suicide?
Pair with the usual procs? 25% Frozen Touch meagre proc hitting between 50-200, Sorc doesn't possess FP/WF so proc chances are more limited.

Maybe it's just my brains being tired but I find it hard to understand what exactly you are asking from me.

I am asking you general questions that I'd ask whenever undefendable trait + AoE are tossed into a pot together - for obvious reasons (morales come to mind) -, calm down a tad.

Abbd.: To clarify: I am not here to stir up conflict.

I would have liked you to come up with the most extreme application of it (seeing as you main the class) to maybe then work downwards (seeing as the vast majority so far dislikes the undefendable trait), to, then, maybe workout a compromise of sorts.

Note: If it sounds and seems as if you are underselling stuff (due bias, or w/e, whether it's the case or not), people become sceptic, rather sell doomsday and work down towards the thing you actually want. Humble merchant, yadayada.

Darosh wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:10 pm
I am asking you general questions that I'd ask whenever undefendable trait + AoE are tossed into a pot together - for obvious reasons (morales come to mind) -, calm down a tad.

Abbd.: To clarify: I am not here to stir up conflict.

I would have liked you to come up with the most extreme application of it (seeing as you main the class) to maybe then work downwards (seeing as the vast majority so far dislikes the undefendable trait), to, then, maybe workout a compromise of sorts.

Well the most extreme I could think of is 20 Sorcs in a wb with 4 DoKs grouphealing them, somehow keeping always maximum distance to enemy and dotting them from 65feet away until they eventually die to being Ice'd... but that falls into category of what would happen if you had 20 WLs pouncing same target...
So lets assume warband of 8 sorcs, each opening with IS to enemy lines, and they all somehow do assumed 200 hits on victims. AoE dmg is somewhat spread out, so maybe targets get about 4-6 dots on them of which maybe 1.5 get cleansed, so say 5 IS dots slowly ticking on them. Assuming the targets are competent and have resis auras up, the dmg maybe decreases to 150 on average, so you have targets with say 5 IS DoTs churning 750 dmg on 3 sec intervals. During those 3 secs a WP has done 1 group cleanse and possibly close to 2 group heals, entirely negating those spooky fluffdots.

But as said, its not Sorc main bombing tool, but rather something you open up with, and occasionally use mid fight to build Dark Magic up. The dmg is small (obviously small damage added together build lethal doses), but it would likely end up aiding the main bombdmg in causing lethal pressure, unless the enemy warband builds bigger lethal pressure first and wins the fight.

Assuming competent gameplay from enemy warband, the IS would not cause instant meltdown(/freezedown) but would possibly boost generic Sorc aoe output somewhat closer to BW outputs level (again assuming competent BW gameplay and not pugging).

You would need truly massive amounts of Sorcs focusing on same area to make IS into a truly lethal weapon, but then again if you had massive amounts of the BWs doing similar focus with their magical arsenal the end result would be similarly deadly.

But assuming you dont stack your whole WB with Sorcs but go with usual 3-5, you would still maybe get on average 3.5 IS dots on some persons close to frontline, and assuming they do lucky crits of 200-300 it would still not turn out to be that deadly that it could not be countered with half a group heal.
Obviously anything good and undefendable is OP for pugfarming, but I kinda doubt IS becomes some next meta in SC gameplay with bomb sorcs at frontlines, so it would most likely cause some extra AoE pressure increase from Sorcs who lost considerably more in last Octobers Disrupt changes than their mirror class that retains lead in both AoE and ST dmg (assuming competent gameplay).

My viewpoint is that an undefendable AOE dot operates much like Raze would, with half the build time before dropping and almost like a set and forget at the beginning of a fight. Say you set IS on an enemy band: 5 sorcs at ~150 per tick, give you two GCDs to set it up on several targets. That's still about 4 ticks at ~750hp every 3 seconds that's undefendable. You can now count on that damage sticking for the most part (you argue that you can just cleanse it, but isn't it really easy to mask dots in a wb?).

Additionally, stop falsely equivocating Burn Through with undefendable Ice Spikes. They would operate quite differently.

Aurandilaz wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:42 pm

Spoiler:

Darosh wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:10 pm
I am asking you general questions that I'd ask whenever undefendable trait + AoE are tossed into a pot together - for obvious reasons (morales come to mind) -, calm down a tad.

Abbd.: To clarify: I am not here to stir up conflict.

I would have liked you to come up with the most extreme application of it (seeing as you main the class) to maybe then work downwards (seeing as the vast majority so far dislikes the undefendable trait), to, then, maybe workout a compromise of sorts.

Well the most extreme I could think of is 20 Sorcs in a wb with 4 DoKs grouphealing them, somehow keeping always maximum distance to enemy and dotting them from 65feet away until they eventually die to being Ice'd... but that falls into category of what would happen if you had 20 WLs pouncing same target...
So lets assume warband of 8 sorcs, each opening with IS to enemy lines, and they all somehow do assumed 200 hits on victims. AoE dmg is somewhat spread out, so maybe targets get about 4-6 dots on them of which maybe 1.5 get cleansed, so say 5 IS dots slowly ticking on them. Assuming the targets are competent and have resis auras up, the dmg maybe decreases to 150 on average, so you have targets with say 5 IS DoTs churning 750 dmg on 3 sec intervals. During those 3 secs a WP has done 1 group cleanse and possibly close to 2 group heals, entirely negating those spooky fluffdots.

But as said, its not Sorc main bombing tool, but rather something you open up with, and occasionally use mid fight to build Dark Magic up. The dmg is small (obviously small damage added together build lethal doses), but it would likely end up aiding the main bombdmg in causing lethal pressure, unless the enemy warband builds bigger lethal pressure first and wins the fight.

Assuming competent gameplay from enemy warband, the IS would not cause instant meltdown(/freezedown) but would possibly boost generic Sorc aoe output somewhat closer to BW outputs level (again assuming competent BW gameplay and not pugging).

You would need truly massive amounts of Sorcs focusing on same area to make IS into a truly lethal weapon, but then again if you had massive amounts of the BWs doing similar focus with their magical arsenal the end result would be similarly deadly.

But assuming you dont stack your whole WB with Sorcs but go with usual 3-5, you would still maybe get on average 3.5 IS dots on some persons close to frontline, and assuming they do lucky crits of 200-300 it would still not turn out to be that deadly that it could not be countered with half a group heal.
Obviously anything good and undefendable is OP for pugfarming, but I kinda doubt IS becomes some next meta in SC gameplay with bomb sorcs at frontlines, so it would most likely cause some extra AoE pressure increase from Sorcs who lost considerably more in last Octobers Disrupt changes than their mirror class that retains lead in both AoE and ST dmg (assuming competent gameplay).

Thank you for the levelheaded reply. My next line of inquiry, how'd undefendable IS work out in conjunction with Raze (or other morales) in terms of timestamps?
We can agree, I think, that fluff ontop of w/e compressed within a few timestamps can make or break things; pushing people over the edge in between GCD cycles.

As you are running with TUP, how'd impact a timed bomb, rather than an instance of general gameflow? ~ as a line for comparison take Swell of Gloom, adding 500ish or so worth of damage to a timestamp.

Again, asking just for the sake of asking, if you will.

dansari wrote: ↑Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:58 pm My viewpoint is that an undefendable AOE dot operates much like Raze would, with half the build time before dropping and almost like a set and forget at the beginning of a fight. Say you set IS on an enemy band: 5 sorcs at ~150 per tick, give you two GCDs to set it up on several targets. That's still about 4 ticks at ~750hp every 3 seconds that's undefendable. You can now count on that damage sticking for the most part (you argue that you can just cleanse it, but isn't it really easy to mask dots in a wb?).

Additionally, stop falsely equivocating Burn Through with undefendable Ice Spikes. They would operate quite differently.

Except Raze is part of moral "burst" bomb, with 1200 dmg done in smaller timeframe of 3 seconds. With 4 tanks razing same target for 4800 dmg, 4 Sorcs with IS would do 4x2x ~200=1600 dmg in meanwhile. or 4x2x ~150=1200. (their other abilities hitting far more)
Which is about why no Sorc seriously focuses on IS spamming, but uses it mainly to build DarkMagic at start and middle of fight after having used SP, the current dmg is miniscule and when compared to the oppurtunity cost of using harder hitting direct dmg AOE abilities, often not best choice, but still done because those mighty ticks add to the general AoE pressure that decides the fight.

Lets assume that under current conditions half of IS is wasted due to defensive checks, and if this waste were countered by the tactic making it undefendable, to that 750 / 3 sec you mention, we'd assume current IS churning targets at 375 / 3 sec, which is something that Order currently manages to survive. (its the other actual direct dmg killing them most of time) With dmg gains from becoming undefendable, targets would have to deal with extra gains of 375 / 3 sec dmg addition, rising to that final ~750 / 3 sec level. (would that increase cause massive imbalance between realms; IMO unlikely unless everyone decides to start rolling Sorcs)



Suggestion, if "undefendable" is too much, what if IS simply became un-Disruptable, meaning it went through Block check, but harms unshielded targets without mercy with those aforementioned fluff ticks. Meaning tanks would not suffer from freezing at sight of Sorcs, but if they let Sorcs dot the soft backlines, it would be truly deadly? (or countered by cleansing and few group heals)

I'm really enjoying this discussion. Would making Ice Spikes undefendable but un-refreshable solve the problem? Meaning if you spam ice spikes the duration on the dot does not return to 15 seconds but continues to tick down from the initial application. I wonder how this would work in practice.