Return of Reckoning

Arthem wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 11:58 am Revert eye shot back to core. Don't know why it was nerfed.

Revert heal debuff to 6 points. Don't know why it was nerfed.

Revert Ambush morale 2 to Outrider Patrol. Don't know why we lost our best DD morale 2.

Revert Expert skirmisher from requiring a target to apply build reduction. Don't know why our aoe was nerfed.

because of ASW. making them align with other mdps.

anarchypark wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 10:38 pm

Arthem wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 11:58 am Revert eye shot back to core. Don't know why it was nerfed.

Revert heal debuff to 6 points. Don't know why it was nerfed.

Revert Ambush morale 2 to Outrider Patrol. Don't know why we lost our best DD morale 2.

Revert Expert skirmisher from requiring a target to apply build reduction. Don't know why our aoe was nerfed.

because of ASW. making them align with other mdps.

Except those were all changes BEFORE ASW changes and were unrelated to it, but nice try.

Manatikik wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 12:18 am

anarchypark wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 10:38 pm

Arthem wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 11:58 am Revert eye shot back to core. Don't know why it was nerfed.

Revert heal debuff to 6 points. Don't know why it was nerfed.

Revert Ambush morale 2 to Outrider Patrol. Don't know why we lost our best DD morale 2.

Revert Expert skirmisher from requiring a target to apply build reduction. Don't know why our aoe was nerfed.

because of ASW. making them align with other mdps.

Except those were all changes BEFORE ASW changes and were unrelated to it, but nice try.

You think ASW was made by fingerflip just 1day b4 patch day ?
previous changes were preparation to patchday version. ASW have long history.
as if you're new to server or trying to be ignorant.

Devs don't tell us but you should get the glimpse of their process if you'd followed changes closely.
that image could be far from actual truth but it helps to underdtand changes nonetheless.

so some changes come first, some later.
if it stays it has reason. reverted with reason.

if you're unable to see it cuz short sight or whatever, try reverse analysis, what would happen if ASW have those things.

anarchypark wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 5:46 am

Manatikik wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 12:18 am

anarchypark wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 10:38 pm


because of ASW. making them align with other mdps.

Except those were all changes BEFORE ASW changes and were unrelated to it, but nice try.

You think ASW was made by fingerflip just 1day b4 patch day ?
previous changes were preparation to patchday version. ASW have long history.
as if you're new to server or trying to be ignorant.

Devs don't tell us but you should get the glimpse of their process if you'd followed changes closely.
that image could be far from actual truth but it helps to underdtand changes nonetheless.

so some changes come first, some later.
if it stays it has reason. reverted with reason.

if you're unable to see it cuz short sight or whatever, try reverse analysis, what would happen if ASW have those things.

Except a lot of the ASW changes were directly related to a balance proposal I made; then Torque and i replied back and forth in the thread and he made the changes the next patch... The process on those changes was very very public and evident.

Maybe if you took the devs off a pedestal (too put it politely) you would see that that are humans who make mistakes just like the rest of us and don't have some grand plan/scheme for every change thats multi-months in the process. ASW were rather spur of the moment ~3 years ago and the skirmish changes were before that in response to a greater response (and Phalanx rampaging the lakes with RSH WB's) and the addition of Shatter. For how much you play this game dude you are very ignorant to why/how things work.

Manatikik wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 7:00 am
.... (and Phalanx rampaging the lakes with RSH WB's)

As I remember it, we used 2-3 SH at most. But not really surprised as it's not really the first time draconian nerfs were made as a knee jerk reaction cos people made good use of classes by actually setting up groups around certain strategies and it happens to work. The core of the game is based around synergy, but most synergy interaction gets nerfed as soon as it's shown as more effective then the status quo of the game. That said, I know ES was bugged at the time, but without UF the tactic isn't really detrimental to the game, just functioning as a 50% cast reducer on non target spells. Removing both UF and fixing ES have left the ranged AoE build for both SH/SW completely undesirable.

roadkillrobin wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 7:35 am

Manatikik wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 7:00 am
.... (and Phalanx rampaging the lakes with RSH WB's)

As I remember it, we used 2-3 SH at most. But not really surprised as it's not really the first time draconian nerfs were made as a knee jerk reaction cos people made good use of classes by actually setting up entire warbands around certain strategies and it happens to work. The core of the game is based around synergy, but most synergy interaction gets nerfed as soon as it's shown as more effective then the status quo of the game. That said, I know ES was bugged at the time, but without UF the tactic isn't really detrimental to the game functioning as a 50% cast reducer on non target spells. Removing both UF and fixing ES have left the ranged AoE build for both classes completely undesirable.

We were running SW WB's for like a month or two before you guys were doing SH ones (was in NA though so was pretty lulsie, esp back in those days) but for like a week straight Hao was running a lot of RSH and farming people and Order got big mad. I still think they just need to make SH/SW viable for middling WB's so they can not be a completely wasted spot if still not top-tier meta.

Manatikik wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 7:00 am


Except a lot of the ASW changes were directly related to a balance proposal I made; then Torque and i replied back and forth in the thread and he made the changes the next patch... The process on those changes was very very public and evident.

Maybe if you took the devs off a pedestal (too put it politely) you would see that that are humans who make mistakes just like the rest of us and don't have some grand plan/scheme for every change thats multi-months in the process. ASW were rather spur of the moment ~3 years ago and the skirmish changes were before that in response to a greater response (and Phalanx rampaging the lakes with RSH WB's) and the addition of Shatter. For how much you play this game dude you are very ignorant to why/how things work.

k then share your insight why those changes not get reverted when ASW emerged. did they ever tell you why?

anarchypark wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 8:11 am

Manatikik wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 7:00 am


Except a lot of the ASW changes were directly related to a balance proposal I made; then Torque and i replied back and forth in the thread and he made the changes the next patch... The process on those changes was very very public and evident.

Maybe if you took the devs off a pedestal (too put it politely) you would see that that are humans who make mistakes just like the rest of us and don't have some grand plan/scheme for every change thats multi-months in the process. ASW were rather spur of the moment ~3 years ago and the skirmish changes were before that in response to a greater response (and Phalanx rampaging the lakes with RSH WB's) and the addition of Shatter. For how much you play this game dude you are very ignorant to why/how things work.

k then share your insight why those changes not get reverted when ASW emerged. did they ever tell you why?

Why would the two have to be related? Kinda grasping at straws here dude.

Manatikik wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 8:14 am

anarchypark wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 8:11 am

k then share your insight why those changes not get reverted when ASW emerged. did they ever tell you why?

Why would the two have to be related? Kinda grasping at straws here dude.

it's simple question I quoted from first place.
someone asked reason of few changes. I gave ASW related answer.
you disagree and seem to have some insight about it.
so what's ur answer ?
ofc i expect one that not related to asw.

anarchypark wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:40 am

Manatikik wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 8:14 am

anarchypark wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 8:11 am

k then share your insight why those changes not get reverted when ASW emerged. did they ever tell you why?

Why would the two have to be related? Kinda grasping at straws here dude.

it's simple question I quoted from first place.
someone asked reason of few changes. I gave ASW related answer.
you disagree and seem to have some insight about it.
so what's ur answer ?
ofc i expect one that not related to asw.

And i answered you, just cause you don't agree/like an answer doesn't make it wrong but I'll answer them all again.

Eye Shot Nerf - this was mainly due to an overwhelming amount of destro whine on forums and the misonception that RKD non-core is too strong; the issue is they never compensated SW for the nerf to the core kit.

Heal debuff nerf - this was pairity with SH where they chose to nerf SW instead of buff SH (and also prevent SW from getting RKD with FtW build in ST cause obviously our ST was too high)

Outrider Patrol -> Ambush - this was because they wanted to add Shatter to sorc's to balance out BW/Sorc WB disparity and to give parity to SW/SH (again, choosing to nerf SW over buffing SH) BUT MSH also retained their 2.4k Big Shootin' M4 from 100 ft with a self-morale pump which was the original balance between the two classes in morale play for large scale

Expert Skirmisher Nerf - this was an overarching nerf to all RDPS classes primarily to combat unintended uses with Engi/Magus with Keg/Magnet/Pet summoning for half speed with no negative effects; this was also the time when Phalanx were running around with UF + ES on their RSH with self pump to get UF within 15s and "bomb" large groups in ORvR wiping zergs over the 7s so SW/SH got no sympathy for losing all their AoE potential.


But you're right, it has everything to do with the ASW changes that happened months after these occurred spurred by a string of Balance Proposals.

I patiently await your next Haiku.