Return of Reckoning

Detangler wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:50 pm A touch of destro bias in that OP, so take it with a grain of salt.

Couple things:

1. Access to certain tactics does not make a class significantly better than its counterpart, as you must choose a certain tactic in place of another.

Easy example - chosen tactic for -10% crit chance. It's pretty good, but is it better or worse than 160 toughness? Renown point wise, 160 toughness costs a lot more renown points than -10% crit chance. If a 2h chosen decides to take it over something else, what are they giving up to take it? This point is often lost in arguments and essays.

2. Swordmaster 25% parry buff is a garbage utility due to its extremely short duration and SM ability balance mechanics making it extremely difficult to keep up 100% of the time. It would require a serious loss of DPS to keep that buff up a lot.

3. RP V Zealot. RP has access to a lot of useful tactics that Zealot does not - 1/2 stun duration, armor, ranged snare chance on 15 sec dot tick, aoe punt CD reduction + snare. Zealot has a very limited selection of useful tactics. RP also has a greater ability to provide aoe support damage with Rune of Battle that Zealot does not have while not hindering healing abilities.

4. One thing you didnt mention is that the BO has probably the highest damage potential on squishy targets among tanks in the game. The one saving grace of the worst tank is that it can do decent damage, but it still won't compare to real DPS classes and does not make up for lack of real utility that other tanks can provide. Shield BO is probably the worst tank spec I've ever had the misfortune of playing.

5. Slayer's unblockable aoe disarm is probably the most overlooked powerful utility in the game that no one seems to talk about. Seriously.

6. GtdC pull is a slot machine of either being useful and pulling heals/dps or handing out immunity to tanks that got pulled 10 feet. There are definitely issues with how it behaves in keeps that cannot be denied. I'd advocate for rampage and GtdC to be completely disabled around keeps as they both completely ruin funnels.

7. The proposed counters to rampage and GtdC by keyboard warriors are laughable. Just shatter barely works in small scale scenarios, and good luck constantly taunting/interrupting all the choppas in a zerg every 20 seconds. Stop kidding yourself and everyone else about it as it will not work even 30% of the time.

Scottx125 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:21 am The problem I have with this is you're comparing classes 1:1 and not comparing them with the current meta of the game..

It's not just about mirroring (I'd argue classes are not exactly mirrored to ensure they have flavour). But it's about making them fun and useful in general content(whilst ensuring one is not stronger/weaker than their counterpart). I'll use the WP as an example as that's the class I know best.

WP Salv is great in most content, not ideal in kiting fights but it works.

Grace, bad choice for ORVR. It works okay in small scale, cities and PVE but that's it. It's a high risk low reward spec as it does low damage and okay healing (salv is better). It's also a shame you can't hybridise this spec properly between casted healing and melee damage.

Finally Wrath. Useless in pretty much all forms of content. Does poor healing, does mediocre damage, doesn't bring anything useful to groups/WBs that other classes in their primary spec can already do better.

Ananelle wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:43 am Agreed 100%. If things stay like this, the pop will drop to unplayable numbers. Double RR revitalized the game a bit , but it won’t stay like this for long until new players get a hang of what’s happening.And old players leave lol. All those things you mentioned need to be changed, and firstly start with nerfing the rampage by at least 50%. Order is dominating every manfight, every scenario, and city that has multiple geared slayers in it. Choppa just can’t compete except pull some kills in orvr. And yeah, Black Orc is pathetically weak. Killing all the fun out of the game.

IVendettaI wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:57 am

Scottx125 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:21 am The problem I have with this is you're comparing classes 1:1 and not comparing them with the current meta of the game..

It's not just about mirroring (I'd argue classes are not exactly mirrored to ensure they have flavour). But it's about making them fun and useful in general content(whilst ensuring one is not stronger/weaker than their counterpart). I'll use the WP as an example as that's the class I know best.

WP Salv is great in most content, not ideal in kiting fights but it works.

Grace, bad choice for ORVR. It works okay in small scale, cities and PVE but that's it. It's a high risk low reward spec as it does low damage and okay healing (salv is better). It's also a shame you can't hybridise this spec properly between casted healing and melee damage.

Finally Wrath. Useless in pretty much all forms of content. Does poor healing, does mediocre damage, doesn't bring anything useful to groups/WBs that other classes in their primary spec can already do better.

You need to say the full names of spells if you want me to understand, i'm not english (I think it's visible)

Scottx125 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:00 am

IVendettaI wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:57 am

Scottx125 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:21 am The problem I have with this is you're comparing classes 1:1 and not comparing them with the current meta of the game..

It's not just about mirroring (I'd argue classes are not exactly mirrored to ensure they have flavour). But it's about making them fun and useful in general content(whilst ensuring one is not stronger/weaker than their counterpart). I'll use the WP as an example as that's the class I know best.

WP Salv is great in most content, not ideal in kiting fights but it works.

Grace, bad choice for ORVR. It works okay in small scale, cities and PVE but that's it. It's a high risk low reward spec as it does low damage and okay healing (salv is better). It's also a shame you can't hybridise this spec properly between casted healing and melee damage.

Finally Wrath. Useless in pretty much all forms of content. Does poor healing, does mediocre damage, doesn't bring anything useful to groups/WBs that other classes in their primary spec can already do better.

You need to say the full names of spells if you want me to understand, i'm not english (I think it's visible)

I haven't mentioned any spells... WP = Warrior Priest, Salv = Salvation tree, Spec = If you're running Salv, Grace or Wrath specialisation trees. Everything else is commonly used within the game, discord and forums which you should be familiar with.

IVendettaI wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:50 am

Detangler wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 11:50 pm A touch of destro bias in that OP, so take it with a grain of salt.

Couple things:

1. Access to certain tactics does not make a class significantly better than its counterpart, as you must choose a certain tactic in place of another.

Easy example - chosen tactic for -10% crit chance. It's pretty good, but is it better or worse than 160 toughness? Renown point wise, 160 toughness costs a lot more renown points than -10% crit chance. If a 2h chosen decides to take it over something else, what are they giving up to take it? This point is often lost in arguments and essays.

2. Swordmaster 25% parry buff is a garbage utility due to its extremely short duration and SM ability balance mechanics making it extremely difficult to keep up 100% of the time. It would require a serious loss of DPS to keep that buff up a lot.

3. RP V Zealot. RP has access to a lot of useful tactics that Zealot does not - 1/2 stun duration, armor, ranged snare chance on 15 sec dot tick, aoe punt CD reduction + snare. Zealot has a very limited selection of useful tactics. RP also has a greater ability to provide aoe support damage with Rune of Battle that Zealot does not have while not hindering healing abilities.

4. One thing you didnt mention is that the BO has probably the highest damage potential on squishy targets among tanks in the game. The one saving grace of the worst tank is that it can do decent damage, but it still won't compare to real DPS classes and does not make up for lack of real utility that other tanks can provide. Shield BO is probably the worst tank spec I've ever had the misfortune of playing.

5. Slayer's unblockable aoe disarm is probably the most overlooked powerful utility in the game that no one seems to talk about. Seriously.

6. GtdC pull is a slot machine of either being useful and pulling heals/dps or handing out immunity to tanks that got pulled 10 feet. There are definitely issues with how it behaves in keeps that cannot be denied. I'd advocate for rampage and GtdC to be completely disabled around keeps as they both completely ruin funnels.

7. The proposed counters to rampage and GtdC by keyboard warriors are laughable. Just shatter barely works in small scale scenarios, and good luck constantly taunting/interrupting all the choppas in a zerg every 20 seconds. Stop kidding yourself and everyone else about it as it will not work even 30% of the time.

"A touch of Destro bias in that OP, so take it with a grain of salt."

Predictable.

"1. Access to certain tactics does not make a class significantly better than its counterpart, as you must choose a certain tactic in place of another.

Easy example - chosen tactic for -10% crit chance. It's pretty good, but is it better or worse than 160 toughness? Renown point wise, 160 toughness costs a lot more renown points than -10% crit chance. If a 2h chosen decides to take it over something else, what are they giving up to take it? This point is often lost in arguments and essays."

It doesn't significantly make one class better. However, we can certainly say that a Slayer can become viable and meta much more quickly and easily than its Choppa counterpart? This is an undeniable issue.
Your "Easy example" is understandable, but you chose the wrong example. Rugged (I assume you meant Toughness) and Flawless Armor are core tactics. So, they cost nothing. On the other hand, Deamon Claw could be an example, but there's clearly no comparison in reality.

Your example discusses a smart choice of tactics on a given class, which is off-topic because I was talking about differences in equity between counterparts. Rampage and Git To Da Choppa are the flagship abilities of the two classes, and that's why people compare them even though they are not alike. Of course, on a given class (e.g., Chosen), taking Opressing Blow and Rending Blade will most likely be wiser than taking Feed on the Weary for the same build. This is not exactly what I was talking about.

"2. Swordmaster 25% parry buff is a garbage utility due to its extremely short duration and SM ability balance mechanics making it extremely difficult to keep up 100% of the time. It would require a serious loss of DPS to keep that buff up a lot."

It does indeed last for 5 seconds, but it's spammable. Now, stacking it with Wall of Darting Steel is not easy, yes. But it remains possible.

After all, as I said, all tanks need a buff (I was harsher on the SM, but he deserves a buff too).

A 5-second buff extension could be a good thing, for example. (He doesn't deserve more sympathy from me lol)

"3. RP V Zealot. RP has access to a lot of useful tactics that Zealot does not - 1/2 stun duration, armor, ranged snare chance on 15 sec dot tick, aoe punt CD reduction + snare. Zealot has a very limited selection of useful tactics. RP also has a greater ability to provide aoe support damage with Rune of Battle that Zealot does not have while not hindering healing abilities."

I didn't delve into this topic. If you say so, I'm fine with it, you're going in the direction I'm suggesting, so that's good.

"4. One thing you didn't mention is that the BO has probably the highest damage potential on squishy targets among tanks in the game. The one saving grace of the worst tank is that it can do decent damage, but it still won't compare to real DPS classes and does not make up for the lack of real utility that other tanks can provide. Shield BO is probably the worst tank spec I've ever had the misfortune of playing."

Yes, it has the double armor debuff, indeed. But apart from the Bring 'Em On + Keep it Goin'! build to spam Da Big Un', it doesn't have more impact than other offtanks. Yes, it spams AoE, so it deals damage. It takes two tactics to use a spell, though. Not great.

"5. Slayer's unblockable aoe disarm is probably the most overlooked powerful utility in the game that no one seems to talk about. Seriously."

You mean disarm a Slayer? Yes, KD, disarm. We can do lots of things to reduce the sentence lol, but Rampage => 20 sec, not 5.

"6. GtdC pull is a slot machine of either being useful and pulling heals/dps or handing out immunity to tanks that got pulled 10 feet. There are definitely issues with how it behaves in keeps that cannot be denied. I'd advocate for Rampage and GtdC to be completely disabled around keeps as they both completely ruin funnels."

Okay, so there's a slight "Destro bias," but in the end, you clearly agree with me?

Okay, why not!