Return of Reckoning

So you want to get RR by PvE? No. They have gone out of their way to make a viable PvE gearing path where you can get good gear and wards up till invader level with 0RR and that not enough for you?

I am all for a boosted toon for people who have RR80+ toons, say you can start at 40/40 if you want but new players NEED to play RvR/SC's to even begin to understand the game.

BluIzLucky wrote: Mon May 26, 2025 7:31 pm As someone that previously suggested the Weekly Dungeon Events should give PvP Crests (like 150 total per week), I think this is a good idea, and should be up to RR40.

It should be enough that if you go pure PvE you'll reach RR30.

Then when reaching CR40 your RR would be:
Pure PvE = RR30
Pure SC = RR45
Pure RvR = RR60

This would mean pure PvE would give 1/3 and 1/8 renown of SC and RvR respectively.
And could simply be implemented as "2.6% RP given based on PvE XP gain." (I.e. 2.6 RP for every 100 XP).
Based on this calculation:
0.3M (RP for RR30) / 12M (XP for CR40) * 100 = 2.6%

As long as PvE is the worst progression, I don't have an issue. If it means the time spend in PvE feels less wasted or outright detrimental.

But yeah, good luck convincing the PvP only crowd..

Thanks for the math. This is actually a pretty solid ground.

Endari wrote: Tue May 27, 2025 7:39 am So you want to get RR by PvE? No. They have gone out of their way to make a viable PvE gearing path where you can get good gear and wards up till invader level with 0RR and that not enough for you?

I am all for a boosted toon for people who have RR80+ toons, say you can start at 40/40 if you want but new players NEED to play RvR/SC's to even begin to understand the game.

I understand what you mean, but please consider this is not about making farming gear easier.
It's also not about me wanting more PvE in a PvP game (I haven't even touched one of the new reworked dungeons yet). It's about the possibility of experiencing the whole game and an alternative to those days where you're getting farmed in scenarios and RvR.

Also, you still would need crests, and those you only get from PvP. The best way to BIS wouldn't change at all, doing as much PvP as possible right from the beginning. They could implement even more quests along the line that require you to do PvP so new players don't forget about it.

And your suggestion about toons makes me believe that you read this topic as a wish to get anything faster with less work.
Believe me, it's not.

It's about playing the game more and not less.

Endari wrote: Tue May 27, 2025 7:39 am new players NEED to play RvR/SC's to even begin to understand the game.

I'd argue that. Amount of "veterans" who struggle with guard mechanics, amount of RR85+ in BiS who dont know combat basics, amount of people being unable to counter meme warbands... is just overwhelming. Reason? Nowhere to see/find proper info, laziness to properly test out -> "it works for me bro, im doing it since live".

To begin to understand the game there needs to be a much much better information support, full detail wiki with combat formulas and code with indepth explanations, graphs, math, typical group compositions, how they are played etc etc etc etc
Look, a link to detailed each abilities code database (so you can actually checkup what exactly your skill does) is nowhere to be found on any official communication channel!

We've got pretty much nothing - just old webarchived from live, none systemized forum posts from 2014+, and lots of info, the most important info is gatekeeped in various closed discords (i do that myself too).
The only action done to fight this issue has been Troma's commitment into website. Kudos. But its still lacking a tons of info. And not even talking about how useless wiki actually is.

So thats how you understand the game - 1) you learn basic info and quick to follow guides 2) you try them out and practice 3) you fail and get rekt 4) you rethink/reread basics 5) you practice again

Proposal OP suggests, has nothing to do against learning the game at all. It just leaves another route so newcomers wont be absolutely worthless as they hit t4 while enjoying indeed pretty cool lore and exploring amazing maps.
As you could actually read up, this wont be the best possible option to level out nor i see any possible abuse assuming all the discussion.

The only cons not mentioned is it will cause lesser people of <T4 chars in oRvR. Counterargument that oRvR design is so bad, that PvD is already there all around outside of EU prime (and on primetimes everyone is on their most suitable for situation chars anyways, so newbs are gonna be grinding rr's anyway and rest would be on whatever) so it doesnt really matter at all. There is no difference if you take an empty keep with ~20 enemies in the zones or ~15 while other pairing is taken the same way the same very moment by opposing realm under totally same conditions.

So yeahs, OP last thesis "its about playing this game more" is how i understand what is proposed. And support.

Stimpz wrote: Tue May 27, 2025 8:48 am It's also not about me wanting more PvE in a PvP game (I haven't even touched one of the new reworked dungeons yet). It's about the possibility of experiencing the whole game and an alternative to those days where you're getting farmed in scenarios and RvR.

Also, you still would need crests, and those you only get from PvP. The best way to BIS wouldn't change at all, doing as much PvP as possible right from the beginning. They could implement even more quests along the line that require you to do PvP so new players don't forget about it.

It's just QoL for new players, when they know nothing about renown potions, weekend SC, gear progression, pots, tali. Old players have blurry vision, especially with multiple BiS toons from ages ago.

When you are alredy geared, with friends who can help - it isn't a big deal to farm T2-T3 PQ sets, fast run GB-City-BS-HV. But with lack of connections in game - reccomendation "just group up\enter the guild" - you try, spend 1 hour just to group up? Easy! AT EU primetime with no siege in near perspective.

Things like failstate on T4 SC, PvP-PvE balance for level and gear up, no automatisation for group dungeons, old players ignore most activities and not interested to help. But solving this will matter only if you interested into rise server population. This is not a priority, as I know and see.

nocturnalguest wrote: Tue May 27, 2025 10:27 am [
I'd argue that. Amount of "veterans" who struggle with guard mechanics, amount of RR85+ in BiS who dont know combat basics, amount of people being unable to counter meme warbands... is just overwhelming. Reason? Nowhere to see/find proper info, laziness to properly test out -> "it works for me bro, im doing it since live".

To begin to understand the game there needs to be a much much better information support, full detail wiki with combat formulas and code with indepth explanations, graphs, math, typical group compositions, how they are played etc etc etc etc
Look, a link to detailed each abilities code database (so you can actually checkup what exactly your skill does) is nowhere to be found on any official communication channel!

So thats how you understand the game - 1) you learn basic info and quick to follow guides 2) you try them out and practice 3) you fail and get rekt 4) you rethink/reread basics 5) you practice again

Proposal OP suggests, has nothing to do against learning the game at all. It just leaves another route so newcomers wont be absolutely worthless as they hit t4 while enjoying indeed pretty cool lore and exploring amazing maps.
As you could actually read up, this wont be the best possible option to level out nor i see any possible abuse assuming all the discussion.

The only cons not mentioned is it will cause lesser people of <T4 chars in oRvR. Counterargument that oRvR design is so bad, that PvD is already there all around outside of EU prime (and on primetimes everyone is on their most suitable for situation chars anyways, so newbs are gonna be grinding rr's anyway and rest would be on whatever) so it doesnt really matter at all. There is no difference if you take an empty keep with ~20 enemies in the zones or ~15 while other pairing is taken the same way the same very moment by opposing realm under totally same conditions.

Sure more updated guides could help no issues with that at all but if you think leveling up both RR and CR in PvE will make players less useless when they hit 40/40 wearing whatever combo of PvE gear they got you are crazy. PvE is a completely different game mode with completely different play styles than RvR/SCs. You cannot learn how to play this game in PvE.

Endari wrote: Tue May 27, 2025 8:54 pm

nocturnalguest wrote: Tue May 27, 2025 10:27 am [
I'd argue that. Amount of "veterans" who struggle with guard mechanics, amount of RR85+ in BiS who dont know combat basics, amount of people being unable to counter meme warbands... is just overwhelming. Reason? Nowhere to see/find proper info, laziness to properly test out -> "it works for me bro, im doing it since live".

To begin to understand the game there needs to be a much much better information support, full detail wiki with combat formulas and code with indepth explanations, graphs, math, typical group compositions, how they are played etc etc etc etc
Look, a link to detailed each abilities code database (so you can actually checkup what exactly your skill does) is nowhere to be found on any official communication channel!

So thats how you understand the game - 1) you learn basic info and quick to follow guides 2) you try them out and practice 3) you fail and get rekt 4) you rethink/reread basics 5) you practice again

Proposal OP suggests, has nothing to do against learning the game at all. It just leaves another route so newcomers wont be absolutely worthless as they hit t4 while enjoying indeed pretty cool lore and exploring amazing maps.
As you could actually read up, this wont be the best possible option to level out nor i see any possible abuse assuming all the discussion.

The only cons not mentioned is it will cause lesser people of <T4 chars in oRvR. Counterargument that oRvR design is so bad, that PvD is already there all around outside of EU prime (and on primetimes everyone is on their most suitable for situation chars anyways, so newbs are gonna be grinding rr's anyway and rest would be on whatever) so it doesnt really matter at all. There is no difference if you take an empty keep with ~20 enemies in the zones or ~15 while other pairing is taken the same way the same very moment by opposing realm under totally same conditions.

Sure more updated guides could help no issues with that at all but if you think leveling up both RR and CR in PvE will make players less useless when they hit 40/40 wearing whatever combo of PvE gear they got you are crazy. PvE is a completely different game mode with completely different play styles than RvR/SCs. You cannot learn how to play this game in PvE.

I neither agree nor disagree with either of you but do you think players are learning in the current state of the lakes?
all i see are everybody rushing in spamming aoe at blobs. you will not get a guard from a pug unless you specifically ask for it(and they will never swap guards situationally)

Endari wrote: Tue May 27, 2025 8:54 pm You cannot learn how to play this game in PvE.

Nah they wont, but retention would be there, they will be playing at least and dont log off if e.g. situation in lakes/scs is bad. Also nor do they learn a thing/much currently PvDing outside of EU prime and in SCs lacking better MM and lots QoL adjustments.
Ill phrase a bit differently what i say - just playing PvP not gonna solve much anyway. Lots of proves en persona that "time spent playing" =/= being skilled and know a game. Rankeds were awesome indicator of how much there were long-time established selfproclaimed pros, oRvR heroes who learnt their place and got washed away cause "toxicity"

And in regards to uselessness, well, you are right of course, skill and knowledge >>>> rr, gear. But 40/~20 folks would at least spec something in rr and not walk around in keepers set.

nocturnalguest wrote: Tue May 27, 2025 9:35 pm

Nah they wont, but retention would be there, they will be playing at least and dont log off if e.g. situation in lakes/scs is bad. Also nor do they learn a thing/much currently PvDing outside of EU prime and in SCs lacking better MM and lots QoL adjustments.
Ill phrase a bit differently what i say - just playing PvP not gonna solve much anyway. Lots of proves en persona that "time spent playing" =/= being skilled and know a game. Rankeds were awesome indicator of how much there were long-time established selfproclaimed pros, oRvR heroes who learnt their place and got washed away cause "toxicity"

And in regards to uselessness, well, you are right of course, skill and knowledge >>>> rr, gear. But 40/~20 folks would at least spec something in rr and not walk around in keepers set.

My main issue with it other than giving out RR for PvE is bad, is that people will get so disillusioned with the real game after leveling from PvE that they will immediately quit once they realize how different RvR is from what they leveled with. Both of you are correct in that the current game does not promote good habits as in the blob you only need to spam 1 or 2 buttons and you win, small man is where you learn your class and how to play in a group but they have just gutted all small man content.

Endari wrote: Tue May 27, 2025 11:30 pm
My main issue with it other than giving out RR for PvE is bad, is that people will get so disillusioned with the real game after leveling from PvE that they will immediately quit once they realize how different RvR is from what they leveled with. Both of you are correct in that the current game does not promote good habits as in the blob you only need to spam 1 or 2 buttons and you win, small man is where you learn your class and how to play in a group but they have just gutted all small man content.

I want to say that I, and I guess nobody else here, promote that you should be playing this game only through PvE. Like I wrote in my third sentence in the beginning, PvP should always be priority number one.

I understand your fear that new players could get disillusioned, but is it really a real scenario?

I mean, if a new player stumbles over this game, never read about it, never saw a video, never ever heard anything about it, and then ignores all quests related to PvP (which are not few in the beginning) and also ignores the advice chat, where people constantly write about PvP-related stuff, then yes, he maybe could be surprised about the endgame. And even then I would be sure that that person probably wouldn't stick around that much if he or she had to do PvP right from the beginning. But at least that hypothetical person wouldn't be at RR 0 and could change their mind and begin to farm crests right away to start their PvP journey and could even get a few items out of bags to wear.

But let's be real. The game advertises its great PvP and mass RvR. That's the main reason a lot of players begin this game. A healthy mix would be the desired outcome. We all know those days where nothing moves forward or one side utterly dominates in the lakes. You don't learn anything or get any rewards on such days, and that's what makes new players bitter (and old players alike). And only then should people have a way to get at least a bit of progress and be able to experience the probably hundreds of hours of work that got put into the PvE rework.