Return of Reckoning

if we follow ur line of thoughts, we were supposed do nothing with SMs, and leave them as Gimps
And play ALL-KoBTS game. yeah parry buff for all of classes 10-15 sec AND only pity SM - ill
spam and waste all of his AP bar on rebuffing dat 5 seconds "EAGLE FLIGHT" as crazy)

Can anyone make program like twister that will AUTO "EAGLE FLIGHT" each 5 sec that would be fcROFL as funny to play)

jojomen wrote:if we follow ur line of thoughts, we were supposed do nothing with SMs, and leave them as Gimps
And play ALL-KoBTS game. yeah parry buff for all of classes 10-15 sec AND only pity SM - ill
spam and waste all of his AP bar on rebuffing dat 5 seconds "EAGLE FLIGHT" as crazy)

Can anyone make program like twister that will AUTO "EAGLE FLIGHT" each 5 sec that would be fcROFL as funny to play)

I would advice you to read the previous pages.
EF is not supposed to be up 100% of the combat.

truth is - SM doesnt have any grp support and synergy. IB and kotbs can do everything way way better.

Even if EF is made from 5 sec to 5 mins I would still rather pick tanks than SM.

As was mentioned - SMs synergize ONLY with dps AM + WL with lionheart tactic (if SM is running WW). Its hard to convince slayers and BWs your spirit debuff and stat steal that doesnt stack with other buffs and buffs is better than what IB and kotbs can provide.

Seriously - if u have ever played game on live and still do not understand that SM is the worst possible choice for pretty much every situtation (talking about equally geared and skilled tanks) you were either horrible player or pretty naive and stubborn to admit the truth.

Black Guard doesn't have even 5 sec +25% parry

grumcajs wrote:truth is - SM doesnt have any grp support and synergy. IB and kotbs can do everything way way better.

#truth

grumcajs wrote: Even if EF is made from 5 sec to 5 mins I would still rather pick tanks than SM.

Your opinion, not backed up by arguments, feels like a l2p issue.

grumcajs wrote: As was mentioned - SMs synergize ONLY with dps AM + WL with lionheart tactic (if SM is running WW). Its hard to convince slayers and BWs your spirit debuff and stat steal that doesnt stack with other buffs and buffs is better than what IB and kotbs can provide.

I am always amazed how people fail at such easy things like seeing synergies and building a grp.

Let me explain without giving away to much sm knowledge, since I promised I wont teach you how to play sm.

I assume a 2-2-2 setup, so it is either kobs/ib, sm/kobs or sm/ib.

Things kobs offers: heal +15%, ae snare (superior to the ib one), kd (20s cd), 10% crit, 10% meleecrit, auras, shatter enchantment, kick (10s cd). Those are the important things a kobs contributes.

The ib offers: outgoing hd (5s cd), 25% parry/10% crit on him and the oathfriend, kick (10s cd), kd (10s cd 20s with 2h), armordebuff (way inferior to the wl armordebuff), ae snare (cant necessarily provide perma snare), shatter blessings.
Those are the important things an ib contributes.

In order to roll sm you would have to give up either kobs or ib, but ww will buff the other tank and the whole grp significantly.

ib/sm: Missing the kobs the grp lacks heal +15% which can be easily covered by setting cleanse of both healers to 0s cd. This enables them to cleanse important debuffs right away while the ae cleanse of wp makes any sorc and chosen spamming cs useless.
The grp would loose crit, which can be covered by the sm very high dmg output in comparison to snb kobs. For healcrit loss see above. Auras are not as powerfull as they seem, they take 0 effort which makes them good for casual players, the sm though can buff/debuff any attribute (despite hp) for the same high value for which the kobs would have to spec into different paths. Int/bal/ws/wp buffs are not that common in RoR.
The superior kobs snare is equalized through ww (10s 0 cd on ib snares), not if you are a casual player since the kobs snare is easier to apply.
2 kicks on 10s cd are nice to have, but if you are using them offensively you can deal with both tanks easily on a 10s (5s with ww) cd on 1 tank.
If you are using it defensively the sm kick works aswell.

All those disadvantages dont seem so impactful after all, while I didnt even mention the advantages of having a sm in grp. Yes there are plenty, as I promised I wont give them away in this thread.

I would explain kobs/sm aswell but I feel I am just wasting my knowledge here.
People are stubborn and if they think sm is bad it will always be bad.
I saw those SMs that are often said to have been the very best on their respective server so I can understand.
Most of them were really not impressive. I played with and against them even yesterday.

grumcajs wrote: Seriously - if u have ever played game on live and still do not understand that SM is the worst possible choice for pretty much every situtation (talking about equally geared and skilled tanks) you were either horrible player or pretty naive and stubborn to admit the truth.

I would like to know your characters name on live and in RoR since I am pretty sure, for any grp I played in, you were just another 50 frenown.

True - kotbs auras arent that great and do not stack with RP buffs (str+int+bs+willpower) nor pots. So SM can bring something shiny - like ini debuff and WS (if they actually manage to steal it from right target - int debuff on choppa isnt helpful)

True - IB armor debuff is worse than WL one, though that require WL to be in grp ...

10% crit to whole grp (healing included!) + 15% heals, superpunt, ap regen. this is a lot of buffs to your grp. include either shamy backstab with tripple shatter, 10% to be crit, "aoe" snare tactic, No Escape...

IB can provide buffs to main dps, solid armor debuff (if no WL around), huge will buff to allow WPs go super tanky and still reach softcap, nice ST punt (even aoe one + snare with tactic), outgoing heal debuff dok cannot cleanse, crit debuff (including heals I think), ST armor,str,crit,tough,parry (some ofc doesnt stack with auras/pots)

About additional dps - kotbs are usually running in immortal s/b build so it allow IBs to run with 2h and they do still have a punch where it counts (squishies) while being able to withstand a beating and even heavy burst thanks to m2 if needed.

SMs have some nice tools too - outgoing dmg reduction, cast time increase (if using all the time), 4sec CC immunity on kd (I think it would be more benefical if it would be on some other ability), WW cd decrease. Tbh its true it helps some classes (as u meantioned - WP no cd grp cleanse seems nice, also I think I have seen some bomb bw grps using WW to nonstop that chaneled aoe, + WL lionheart)

I have posted - SM is pretty much the worst man for the job in most sitatuions. I do not doubt they can work great if the grp is built around them. Though unless they plan to somehow nerf slayers to bring them on par with other mdps I still think kotbs+ib is better for this situation.
Not sure when actually slayer became the best dps of game (I think it was around that rr80+ patch so it might actually be better with rr80 max)

If your choose to make a grp that is built around WW it might work and actually works when coordinated for this 1 ability. Though I still think in every other situation SM is way behind kotbs/ib combo.

grumcajs wrote:
True - IB armor debuff is worse than WL one, though that require WL to be in grp ...

Talking about melee grps I would suggest running WL since double slayer gets countered by double dok (even more with the cleansable ID in RoR) and the armor debuff of WL can get up to values ib can only dream of. (flat dmg increase on 4 members of the team)

grumcajs wrote: 10% crit to whole grp (healing included!) + 15% heals, superpunt, ap regen. this is a lot of buffs to your grp. include either shamy backstab with tripple shatter, 10% to be crit, "aoe" snare tactic, No Escape...

Shatter gets set to 0 s cd with ww, the kobs task is not to do dmg so he can spend those gcds with shattering and once in a while snaring. Running kobs vs shaman was always a good idea and you can combine it with sm too.
No escape in a 6on6 seems like a waste to me. Champions Challenge is superior, if you are already at m3 you might save up for moral 4 anyways.
I explained the rest of your points already.

grumcajs wrote: IB can provide buffs to main dps, solid armor debuff (if no WL around), huge will buff to allow WPs go super tanky and still reach softcap, nice ST punt (even aoe one + snare with tactic), outgoing heal debuff dok cannot cleanse, crit debuff (including heals I think), ST armor,str,crit,tough,parry (some ofc doesnt stack with auras/pots)

About additional dps - kotbs are usually running in immortal s/b build so it allow IBs to run with 2h and they do still have a punch where it counts (squishies) while being able to withstand a beating and even heavy burst thanks to m2 if needed.

IB does a 100% phys dmg, this will be reduced by a great amount. Even more if you dont run a WL.
Also the IB has to invest into defense, while the sm can go fully offensive (not talking about fo ).
I am not stating that sm dmg is in every single situation superior to ib dmg but in general it is.
Any ib that has to waste his moral 2 up on being focused is just expendable.
Regarding your will buff, it has a 50f range and any wp that stands in the middle of a meleetrain will die over and over again. Willpower will not help.

grumcajs wrote: SMs have some nice tools too - outgoing dmg reduction, cast time increase (if using all the time), 4sec CC immunity on kd (I think it would be more benefical if it would be on some other ability), WW cd decrease. Tbh its true it helps some classes (as u meantioned - WP no cd grp cleanse seems nice, also I think I have seen some bomb bw grps using WW to nonstop that chaneled aoe, + WL lionheart)

Talking about meleetrains, do you know how difficult it is to maintain a hd in order meleetrains?
10s cd, 10s duration, cleansable by doks, can be defended against. Short temper helps (takes a tactic slot though) and if ww stacks with short temper every slayer will gladly run with sm.
There are way more examples of synergies not only between ww and order classes but also other sm buffs/debuffs.

grumcajs wrote: I have posted - SM is pretty much the worst man for the job in most sitatuions. I do not doubt they can work great if the grp is built around them. Though unless they plan to somehow nerf slayers to bring them on par with other mdps I still think kotbs+ib is better for this situation.
Not sure when actually slayer became the best dps of game (I think it was around that rr80+ patch so it might actually be better with rr80 max)

If your choose to make a grp that is built around WW it might work and actually works when coordinated for this 1 ability. Though I still think in every other situation SM is way behind kotbs/ib combo.

Why building a grp around sm if sm benefits any other order class by a large amount?
Also refrain from reducing sm to ww. Casttime increase, m2, ether dance, stacking resistdebuffs, snare without cd, dmg on crit etc. there are many strong debuffs and buffs.

Your characters name on live, in RoR. So I know who I am talking to.

grumcajs wrote: True - IB armor debuff is worse than WL one, though that require WL to be in grp ...

sounds like you dont like wl either do you?

Nanji wrote: Talking about melee grps I would suggest running WL since double slayer gets countered by double dok (even more with the cleansable ID in RoR) and the armor debuff of WL can get up to values ib can only dream of. (flat dmg increase on 4 members of the team)

yea. WL has 1000 base armor debuff compared to IB 800. As I said - depends on how they meant to balance slayers on par with other mdps classes.

Nanji wrote: Shatter gets set to 0 s cd with ww, the kobs task is not to do dmg so he can spend those gcds with shattering and once in a while snaring. Running kobs vs shaman was always a good idea and you can combine it with sm too.
No escape in a 6on6 seems like a waste to me. Champions Challenge is superior, if you are already at m3 you might save up for moral 4 anyways.
I explained the rest of your points already.

Its nice to have shatter with 0 cd though usually when u use it main dps assist u pretty much strip everything they have and in 5sec they do not benefit that much from other buffs

Nanji wrote: IB does a 100% phys dmg, this will be reduced by a great amount. Even more if you dont run a WL.
Also the IB has to invest into defense, while the sm can go fully offensive (not talking about fo ).
I am not stating that sm dmg is in every single situation superior to ib dmg but in general it is.
Any ib that has to waste his moral 2 up on being focused is just expendable.
Regarding your will buff, it has a 50f range and any wp that stands in the middle of a meleetrain will die over and over again. Willpower will not help.

I doubt we would see very high armor mitigation on soft targets. IB can still debuff solid chunks of armor if specced in vengeance.
I wasnt talking about 6v6 in any of my posts. For that reason m3 can help your team to gtfo when under heavy pressure/outnumbered. Same as stagger can give u precious moments. For the same reason when heavily focused + guard dmg , that IB m2 can be life saver to take the pressure out of your healer so they can keep your dps alive or keep kiting to safety.
Willpower has 20sec duration. Its not that hard to switch oathfriend especially when there is need of switch guard, punt, CC some mdps out of your healers way.

Nanji wrote: Talking about meleetrains, do you know how difficult it is to maintain a hd in order meleetrains?
10s cd, 10s duration, cleansable by doks, can be defended against. Short temper helps (takes a tactic slot though) and if ww stacks with short temper every slayer will gladly run with sm.
There are way more examples of synergies not only between ww and order classes but also other sm buffs/debuffs.

Its not like all your heal debuffs are instantly cleansed. there are other debuffs, dots etc. flying around to mask it. especially when more players are engaged. it might be possible with double doks spamming gcleanse to somehow harrass slayer, though with ID,hd,dot,SL slayers alone can mask it well. and if there are 2 doks , IB can keep them perma heal debuffed unless they use morale to cleanse.

Im not sure if it stacks but I think it should cuz tactics usually stack with other buffs
That was in my mind when I was talking about WW , it should allow slayer to use SL every 10sec, hd all the time its cleansed.

Nanji wrote: Why building a grp around sm if sm benefits any other order class by a large amount?
Also refrain from reducing sm to ww. Casttime increase, m2, ether dance, stacking resistdebuffs, snare without cd, dmg on crit etc. there are many strong debuffs and buffs.

Your characters name on live, in RoR. So I know who I am talking to.

if u use WW+ED+crit u lose kd+immunity, though with WW you allow others to use their CC more frequently.
Casttime, outgoing dmg increase, ED, dmg on crit,WW are all in same balance, not to mention the duration (its 4 sec?) so its possible to keep it up if u r using it all the time or using suden shift. sure its situational and its possible to chose whats needed - more burst to help kill your main dps target, harass healers, keep enemy dps constantly debuffed etc.

Grumcajs is only character Im sure of name . Havent been in game for month or so cuz my job doesnt allow me to atm

Bretin wrote:

grumcajs wrote: True - IB armor debuff is worse than WL one, though that require WL to be in grp ...

sounds like you dont like wl either do you?

I actually like WL and would be pretty happy to see more WLs. On live it was slayer, slayer,slayer and even more slayers...