Return of Reckoning

Guild is on a hiatus while we try out Warmane's new TBC server

Specialpatrol wrote:Why is the ICD such a big nerf to dps DoKs, compared to the dps WP?

Is it simply because they use dual-wield, which before made their covenants proc more?

Also, if dps DoK apparently is in such a bad spot (judging from the complaints in this thread), why are there still a ton of DoKs running around dps'ing with seemingly quite good success and topping dps-charts (Starilas, Vaping, Ppadou etc), while I'm struggling to recall the name of a single active dps WP? Not to mention a successful one.

In regards to the first two questions:
DoK lacks the punch on abilities the 2h provides for the WP (weapondps does serve as variable in the calculation of dmg; more weapondps -> more ability damage -> easier, controlled bursts).
Dual-wield initially made up for it, because your offhand proc could proc a proc (<< ridiculous sentence).

Abbd.:
==> No ICD + haste + sub 3s weapons + potential of two procs per instance of AA => alot of damage.
Abbd.:
Add other procs available to a Dok to the mix => alot more damage.

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To clarify: I would have liked to skip the comparsion. All things considered: DoKs had an edge over the WP due to all the procs and haste (choppa GSI) available to them, among other things. 1:1 comparisons are void in the grand scope of things.
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All in all you can make up for it just fine via with composition, it is arguably only a <real> issue in everything 6>.
However I do unterstand where those are coming from that are not okay with it ~ to some degree.

In regards as to why there are more DoKs than WPs:
Order pugs tend to be generally more vocal about mdps healer than destro pugs - most of WPs stopped bothering trying as they are getting constantly discouraged and **** on one way or another, while they make no effort whatsoever to group up and make it work.
Order has a serious issue with pugs in all instances - you can instantly spot the fairweather xrealm crew...

Destro players - in general - seem to be more organized and mature, so that they are generally more inclined to group up if they play things that they struggle to work out on their own, and are otherwise more lenient.

To put it into perspective:
9/10 times you are playing a scenario on order, you'll have atleast one guy relentlessly bitch and spam the /sc chat.
If its not that, its just a mutist circlejerk without any effort whatsoever to fix groups or ptfo.
3/10 times the same is happening on destro - most of the time, however, destro engage in hilarious conversations in /sc; have a great time together or ask - not demand - to fix the groups and pfto.

The pug environment => imminent collective burnout.

Abbd.:
Additionally: Most of mdps DoKs that are still around have rolled the class ages ago and are completely dedicated to it, while before the ICD change WP weren't considered to be capable of competiting with mdps DoKs, so most of those that rolled WP never really gave a **** about mdps buisness - with rare exceptions here and there.

Thats atleast my take on it... class could have a godmode, if the community shuts down any attempts of <having fun> with it, it'll sink.

TLDR: Peer pressure issued by pugs on order **** over WPs/anything remotely exotic, while exactly those that are by default the most incentivised to group up don't do so - community perception and attitude, or to put it simpler: T1 syndrome.

E: Words and stuff.

Nice points Darosh!!!

Yeah I would agree that if you see a DD DoK chances are it is Me, Mieles, Starilas, Teky, etc - very very rarely it is the occasional level 32 with all greens and you just want to face palm.

I would like to think a little bit of this reason is because I try and catch them in the 30's and pm them as to not let them get discouraged. I explain that the spec shines at 40+ and unless they truly are having a BLAST that going heals and getting to at least 40/40 would really really help their ability to make a difference as well as take the better available specs.

I do know that I came to destro orig just to try it out because of more tanks. Order almost felt like I was batttttttling to get a tank with me unless I duo'd with Gatekeeper. Destro... eh, normally 4-5+ in each SC so after I didn't get dumped on in a few SC's, they started to guard me and we had some fun. They definitely made me prove my worth though.

I do miss seeing the better DD WP's out there though. I still think that hammer looks freaking amazing.

Okay, time for another suggestion.

So since AA's and Covenants are out. I was kinda curious what the five people who read this thread think of this idea.

So DoK's get a few dots right? We get

1. Sanguinary Extension
2. Fell Sacrifice
3. Lacerate

- We also get 1 DoT via the tactic "Khaine's Imbuement" - "25% chance on hit to deal 400 and something spirit damage over 9 seconds"
- And finally we get the tactic that extends the duration of these dots.

HOWEVER - None of these really do any damage at all. Fell Sac is just a way to keep Soul Essence up when you can't Blood Offering. Sure it does some decent damage in PVE and adds some fluff in pvp but lets be real, we use it for SE and extra padding on the stats. Fell Sac is okay..... But it really doesn't add more damage than use an essence transfer and getting healing out of it... Lacerate I do use because for every 1 pt of toughness it is semi like giving yourself 1 str which I like. I use the DoT tactic in PVE when farming mass amounts of mobs but okay MY SUGGESTION:

Do you think people would want DoK to become a DoT DPS? Like for instance remove the stupid dot on that tactic, leave the tactic that can extend the DoT's but make the Imbuement allow the dots to stack 2-3x? They all have at least 5 seconds CD's other than fell sac, so maybe just 2 stacks since 3 would be hard to get off. But I love AOE farming and tinkering with completely unused tactics and I kinda thought it'd be a fun possible spec? It may be one line of code who knows... but anyway, thoughts?

freshour wrote:

Spoiler:

Okay, time for another suggestion.

So since AA's and Covenants are out. I was kinda curious what the five people who read this thread think of this idea.

So DoK's get a few dots right? We get

1. Sanguinary Extension
2. Fell Sacrifice
3. Lacerate

- We also get 1 DoT via the tactic "Khaine's Imbuement" - "25% chance on hit to deal 400 and something spirit damage over 9 seconds"
- And finally we get the tactic that extends the duration of these dots.

HOWEVER - None of these really do any damage at all. Fell Sac is just a way to keep Soul Essence up when you can't Blood Offering. Sure it does some decent damage in PVE and adds some fluff in pvp but lets be real, we use it for SE and extra padding on the stats. Fell Sac is okay..... But it really doesn't add more damage than use an essence transfer and getting healing out of it... Lacerate I do use because for every 1 pt of toughness it is semi like giving yourself 1 str which I like. I use the DoT tactic in PVE when farming mass amounts of mobs but okay MY SUGGESTION:

Do you think people would want DoK to become a DoT DPS? Like for instance remove the stupid dot on that tactic, leave the tactic that can extend the DoT's but make the Imbuement allow the dots to stack 2-3x? They all have at least 5 seconds CD's other than fell sac, so maybe just 2 stacks since 3 would be hard to get off. But I love AOE farming and tinkering with completely unused tactics and I kinda thought it'd be a fun possible spec? It may be one line of code who knows... but anyway, thoughts?

In regards to the stack idea: judging by some of the discussion in the balance forums and Gerv's/devs' take on stack related mechanics and workarounds ~ stacks* aren't an option. It prolly requires client control as most of the ability related stuff is hardcoded or otherwise woven into the client, or it might be just related to the respective topics, but I wouldn't get my hopes up either way.

Your idea wouldn't have much of an impact, especially with the stacks it wouldn't interefere with the burying/cleansing of debuffs, so I personally don't see an issue with it ~ it'd end up as fluff/PvE thing.


Abbd.: Stacks as in: Adding stacks to abilities which don't come with stacks in their stock iteration.

Well I have been tinkering as always and I swapped out a couple armor talis for STR, I took off the domi shoulders as well... AA isn't really that important currently and I'm running
Sometimes I use the AP proc off hand as it procs quite a lot and I don't believe it has an ICD, but generally I don't have a lot of AP issues.

Jewelry has been It gets me around 800 str and 4k armor with no RR in str, 2 in CW, 2 in crit, and 3 in dodge disrupt. I mess around a little if RVR to throw in RD, but haven't had to rely on it as much.

Other than going full RR into STR, and using the 36 str jewelry pieces which are still like 500 gold each and despite so many purple drops I've never gotten one. Also other than subjugator weps as I've had now 20 top 5's and no purple bags... I can't try a weapon proc faster AA setup... Does anyone else have any interesting ideas?

Really was wanting to try the 2 piece set for faster channels... but for the life of me I can't get enough seals and it just seems way too far off to grab. I tried a 2 pc duel, 3 merc, 2 domi to get all str bonuses possible, but the duelist armor value was so damn low for an extra 40-50 strength.

800 str and near 4k armor is about as good as I've ever been able to do. If I could ever reach the 1k mark and not have to dump a ton of RR into str (I hate doing that) I would give it a go, but I can't for the life of me see myself getting to 1100 str without another set coming out with good str and a freaking strength (NOT WILLPOWER) bonus. Okay...

Thoughts?

Edit: Getting domi chest would allow me to run domi helm which has significantly more STR than the merc helm, so I might end up giving that a shot next actually.

It's just a tough world being a melee wp or dok. A straight DPS has little problem getting to soft cap main stat, but being a hybrid healer you've got to spread your stats into something workable and it normally leaves you thin in a few places.

dansari wrote:It's just a tough world being a melee wp or dok. A straight DPS has little problem getting to soft cap main stat, but being a hybrid healer you've got to spread your stats into something workable and it normally leaves you thin in a few places.

this. an extra dps set/making beastlord's WP convert into str for dps dok/wp (thereby making it a useful set!) would not go amiss! =P

peterthepan3 wrote:

dansari wrote:It's just a tough world being a melee wp or dok. A straight DPS has little problem getting to soft cap main stat, but being a hybrid healer you've got to spread your stats into something workable and it normally leaves you thin in a few places.

this. an extra dps set/making beastlord's WP convert into str for dps dok/wp (thereby making it a useful set!) would not go amiss! =P

Totally!!!! BL would have been perfect if it was STR/WS and not willpower. It would have such a good set of bonuses even if you stacked it more than just 3-4 pieces. In all honestly it would be better than dominators toughness debuff which makes zero sense since the DoK gets a toughness debuff... ANNNNND they don't stack lol...

Gosh that woulda been such an easy thing to tweak and I bet the stats of the two classes for melee could actually be looking a lot prettier. I know most people use the cloak anyway just to use the wounds and weaponskill... but man... imagine if it had str on it!!!! The last thing the heal dok/wp needed was another heal set. But I don't wanna digress/rant too much that just struck a nerve that I've been thinking about for quite a while haha.

Specialpatrol wrote:Why is the ICD such a big nerf to dps DoKs, compared to the dps WP?

Is it simply because they use dual-wield, which before made their covenants proc more?

Also, if dps DoK apparently is in such a bad spot (judging from the complaints in this thread), why are there still a ton of DoKs running around dps'ing with seemingly quite good success and topping dps-charts (Starilas, Vaping, Ppadou etc), while I'm struggling to recall the name of a single active dps WP? Not to mention a successful one.

Darosh really nailed this answer: Its also kinda the same thing you see with 2H Chosen. "If 2H chosen is so bad after CS nerf, why do you still see so many of them running around"?

Well, largely because they all made Chosen before the nerf, 2H Chosen maybe the coolest looking class in the game... and several players are committed to it, regardless of how poor it performs. Finally, because of the auras chosen provides, its still not totally worthless although when you compare 2H chosen to SnB Chosen, its no comparison.... The problem is, what they need to do to nerf SnB Chosen (and Knight) is to tweak the auras, which in turn will hurt 2H Chosen even more - making him even more worthless. (Convert's gonna kill me for hijacking this thread LOL)

Ill loop back around: Melee DOK. Its very true the nerf of procs hurt Melee DOK DPS. I think something needs to compensate for that. Frankly, IMO, too much focus has been put on the "meta" roles and some additional thought could be put towards "hybrid" roles - such as Melee Dok actually being a viable DPS class.... Such as DPS Shaman, actually being more of a viable DPS class.... Such as 2H Tanks having viability to be DPS roles...

But my fear is this isnt a focus of the DEV team - as evidenced by the last several years of developing this game. They seem content letting the "hybrid" roles just be sub-optimal roles that people only play for fun, but seems no real serious groups have them... Good news is, less and less "serious groups" are still around, which means any level of coordinated play will probably suffice - though this doesnt excuse the "power gap" that still exists between a "meta" group and a "non meta" group....