Return of Reckoning

Forts were same design last summer.
Destro were facerolling their way to Altdorf twice daily.
What changed ?

What cities look like for destro pugs.

Same city order had 8 healers 4 tanks.

Hardkoar wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:09 pm
What cities look like for destro pugs.

Same city order had 8 healers 4 tanks.

And there was me thinking this was a thread on forts

Haven't played destro in awhile

played destro today... attacked two forts and won two forts 100% success rate data can be spun very easily

Alot of players in general have learn to play issues, and also destro has psychological problem with forts and the need to be "carried" by premades ... too much self apathy and little belief unless they riding wave of momentum for clutch moments.

It comes down to clutch moments and s3 in particular... tanks should know how to tank, guard, push and m4 rotate... (do not stand in door way body blocking entire realm, you need to get through and harras and be the platform and solid foundation for your team) healers should know how to position and heal and when to use FM for superior healing when m4's run out... dps should know how to assist and build their gear/tactics and do actual damage and when and where to use their offensive morales and heal debuffs to create a kill zone for your faction.

You need to push in and clear space for the rest of your faction... and also be in sync with the rest of your faction. Too many times you have very bad back seat leaders try over talk those who know what they are doing, and sometimes trolls with bad countdowns and too many dry pushes against well organised defence... which wastes time and also makes some people give up after one push (lol and start the afk, which makes every other push afterwards a little harder) its very cluster**** ... also maybe too many people on alts trying to gear up instead of bring something more useful can be a issue of quality too.

As the attacker, you need to have precision and a plan... too many times this is lacking, if you do not have all the holy trinty tanks (m4s x 2) dps which do dmg and get kills and healers that are doing more than one group heal every 10 seconds ... this is more a issue for pugs than premades, but a premade cannot do all the work by themselves if there is equal amount of organised premades defending or more, the pugs need to carry their own weight more and this is the bigger issue on destro.

Destro try to stretch order and push multiple forts and sometimes can work but its very big gamble and some what defeatist and fails too often ... if you dominate you should push one zone and gurantee its lock with your strongest fighters .

Id like to also add... throwing, destro do this blatantly many times (hello defending third floor of fort and never pushing down once and let them passively take fort and have a city which they are more likely to win and farm order for easy gains) order very rarely throw if at all, its usually incompetence why they lose (if not lack of number)

Throwing, self pity and weird tactics giving up easy, gambling and failing is the biggest difference between factions (order used to get stomped at forts too and had alot of self pity and same with cities too and were told to "get gud")... forts design helps order usual rpds shine a bit more but if you get a proper melee train inside things even out pretty fast... the main fact is groups and quality is quite often poor and so rain of fire and engi and now sw too spam kills weak groups before they even push so cannot make any impact or difference (so the numbers advantage is lost, and as a attacker you have to do more work than defender) because they lack the holy trinty in their setup and some learn to play issues which make them fail in clutch moments. Pushing is very easy and simple, people over complicate things and don't utilize the basics of their class.

Also alot of puggies do not commit, when defenders are weak and ready to be over run, people wait in door way or outside for others to do the work before pushing in... its do or die... not standby on the sidelines giving defenders a breather and chance to fast rez and recover... you keep pressure on and break them.

Seems like a player issue more than balance or faction issue 160 people... you should have atleast 5 2-2-2 organised wb's or semi pug with pre morales. Then there will be smaller groups ganking or defending jail.

Forts are the worse part of game, but still they are part of the game.

Wam wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:26 am

As the attacker, you need to have precision and a plan... too many times this is lacking, if you do not have all the holy trinty tanks (m4s x 2) dps which do dmg and get kills and healers that are doing more than one group heal every 10 seconds ... this is more a issue for pugs than premades, but a premade cannot do all the work by themselves if there is equal amount of organised premades defending or more, the pugs need to carry their own weight more and this is the bigger issue on destro.

Doesn't work with one KOBTS dropping M4's on charge in, best we have is something that lowers it over time, so they need to do it before the push, which would just abort push and wait till m4 again.
Order is not dying before the push to aoe inside the keep, destro does, on attacking or defnding because they wrap around the walls better.

Watch the next one, destro pushes 3 or 4 times, order just walks in the first time everytime.

Stonewatch: Push hard from postern straight right up healer ramp.

Shining Way: Push in main and under the ramp to 3rd, breaking LOS with their casters.

Reikwald: See Stonewatch, mind the poison

ez

RuhRoh wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 1:09 am

Wam wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:26 am

As the attacker, you need to have precision and a plan... too many times this is lacking, if you do not have all the holy trinty tanks (m4s x 2) dps which do dmg and get kills and healers that are doing more than one group heal every 10 seconds ... this is more a issue for pugs than premades, but a premade cannot do all the work by themselves if there is equal amount of organised premades defending or more, the pugs need to carry their own weight more and this is the bigger issue on destro.

Doesn't work with one KOBTS dropping M4's on charge in, best we have is something that lowers it over time, so they need to do it before the push, which would just abort push and wait till m4 again.
Order is not dying before the push to aoe inside the keep, destro does, on attacking or defnding because they wrap around the walls better.

Watch the next one, destro pushes 3 or 4 times, order just walks in the first time everytime.

Solar flare is nice but if he hits tanks who already used m4 on push (properly) and dps then its kinda wasted... and has given up defensive m4 and sustain for his own party so its a gamble... if he hits the 2nd tank with m4 ready to rotate and manages to drain a few of them that is nice but there are many other morale drain tools available to both sides. knockdown punt any kotbs buys a few seconds also, pushing past the choke is key, too many decide to stay and fight in worse spot in fort soaking up all the damage and making no progress and then say the other side is op because their positioning and engagement needs refinement.

Wam wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:26 am Haven't played destro in awhile

played destro today... attacked two forts and won two forts 100% success rate data can be spun very easily

Maybe you can share your knowledge? How many organized groups did you have? What morales were you running? Did you push early to take advantage of Destro superior morale pumps or did you wait? What are the win conditions for Destro in forts? Not baiting or anything, genuinely interested. I think there is a lot of meta talk regarding cities but very little on how to actually take forts.

Although it is hard/impossible to prove I'd say it's a fair assumption to say there are as many Order pugs as there are Destro. The average Order pugs is not more organized than Destro is and there are l2p issues on both sides (I pug on both sides) yet the results are vastly different. Over the course of my ~4 months playing more seriously here I've seen entire guilds stopping to play seriously and are just now 6-man roaming in the lakes in between 1* ICs. None of the usual names can be heard in T4 chat anymore, there is no leadership. Perhaps they got tired of banging their heads against the same wall?

It probably is just a phase the server is going through and things will change one way or another but it does suck to play Destro in those conditions. I personally am ok just roaming around with friends and leveling alts to learn different roles & classes, just wish there were more Order out in the lakes rather than sitting on forts farming defense ticks when they have 1.5x our numbers.

Gearing wise however Destro is currently hard-mode.

Rekoom wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:08 am

Wam wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:26 am Haven't played destro in awhile

played destro today... attacked two forts and won two forts 100% success rate data can be spun very easily

Maybe you can share your knowledge? How many organized groups did you have? What morales were you running? Did you push early to take advantage of Destro superior morale pumps or did you wait? What are the win conditions for Destro in forts? Not baiting or anything, genuinely interested. I think there is a lot of meta talk regarding cities but very little on how to actually take forts.

Although it is hard/impossible to prove I'd say it's a fair assumption to say there are as many Order pugs as there are Destro. The average Order pugs is not more organized than Destro is and there are l2p issues on both sides (I pug on both sides) yet the results are vastly different. Over the course of my ~4 months playing more seriously here I've seen entire guilds stopping to play seriously and are just now 6-man roaming in the lakes in between 1* ICs. None of the usual names can be heard in T4 chat anymore, there is no leadership. Perhaps they got tired of banging their heads against the same wall?

It probably is just a phase the server is going through and things will change one way or another but it does suck to play Destro in those conditions. I personally am ok just roaming around with friends and leveling alts to learn different roles & classes, just wish there were more Order out in the lakes rather than sitting on forts farming defense ticks when they have 1.5x our numbers.

Gearing wise however Destro is currently hard-mode.

The alliance i am part of, and FMJ was the main driving force on destro... fmj was maybe 35 at peak... we started with 12 (some pugs) eventually 23-24 ... Ofc there was other pugs around who eventually came out the wood work when we get upper hand and momentum

order had FOG/RT and CNTK (drunk alts) and they had about 25-30 pug mix each

order collapse after fort and reboot and fog disband...

So it was premadeish vs semi pug+

I dont think any beavers or nge and we aint fighting ourselves...


Morale pumps dont matter that much in fort due to having to wait on BG (slowbie) to get m4 also so everything is in sync or wasted... If order had a bomb warband in fort maybe it would be different, maybe we would have to work a little harder and out rez them because 1 wb + fmj (1.5 wb) vs 1 wb ... the more organised wbs should win If pug's standby and do not support (which happens alot, too slow to react to whats going on) as soon as you bust a hole in the defence its pretty much RIP.

Order just chip away at enemy (because of heavy rdps stack) and that is main difference, they soften them up... but if you are a proper group the softening up has no effect so is meaningless unless you are a pug with no offence very bad healers and tanks, if you are a weak group it can wipe you, so of course you get demoralised and think you have no chance of winning because your group is not built or played propery... i.e no 2-2-2 with max resistances from buffs (be it chosen aura, or shaman/zealot buff) too many people run wasted tactics and slot junk talismans, I saw a chosen with sov and weapon skill talismans for example (class does spirit dmg, doesnt need armour pen so WS is wasted compared to more wounds toughness armour to be more tanky... same as some tanks slotting STR and neglecting defense, you are tank first and foremost and dps tanks are meme and melt like no tomorrow)

If you get chipped away at enough you get broken, order have successfully broken destro will by numerous defenses over and over again making it as hard for destro... hence destros defeatist attitude throughout this thread which is a joke. So when the going gets tough destro fragment and break. go to self pity excuses and blame class/realm balance instead of composition issues and L2P. Destro use to have a saying like butchers pass never falls, but with cities and destro gaining more from losing forts and winning cities they throw alot... this throwing mentality on defensive forts has come back to bite them on offensive forts because they see order bunker in... and think they cannot do the same and they has a faction only have themselves to blame. It also helps that some of order's guilds are more pug friendly and very active, destro have a over reliance on FMJ to get things done.

People probably bringing lowbie renown characters that need invader instead of their highest geared and experienced can also make significant difference if you really want a city.

Also unguarded MDPS do not contribute alot in forts, that is slight issue if they do not have support (dedicated tanks and healers) then they cannot push and are just rain of fire cannon fodder for order bw... so if not enough people are making balanced groups this effects destro more than order, so if you play a mdps on destro without grouping then can see why frustrated.

Pushed for 6 hours through 2 server resets... we had aao and was losing praag when we started and got chased by these bigger groups across rivers.

If you use your morales properly you have 25-30 seconds to make a impact and clear out a area, then help crumble other areas to ease pressure for your allies to break in... if you do not make a impact or die within 20 seconds then you got some issues that need to be worked on lol. Sarnai give good advice also.

Wam wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:44 am

Rekoom wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:08 am

Wam wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:26 am Haven't played destro in awhile

played destro today... attacked two forts and won two forts 100% success rate data can be spun very easily

Maybe you can share your knowledge? How many organized groups did you have? What morales were you running? Did you push early to take advantage of Destro superior morale pumps or did you wait? What are the win conditions for Destro in forts? Not baiting or anything, genuinely interested. I think there is a lot of meta talk regarding cities but very little on how to actually take forts.

Although it is hard/impossible to prove I'd say it's a fair assumption to say there are as many Order pugs as there are Destro. The average Order pugs is not more organized than Destro is and there are l2p issues on both sides (I pug on both sides) yet the results are vastly different. Over the course of my ~4 months playing more seriously here I've seen entire guilds stopping to play seriously and are just now 6-man roaming in the lakes in between 1* ICs. None of the usual names can be heard in T4 chat anymore, there is no leadership. Perhaps they got tired of banging their heads against the same wall?

It probably is just a phase the server is going through and things will change one way or another but it does suck to play Destro in those conditions. I personally am ok just roaming around with friends and leveling alts to learn different roles & classes, just wish there were more Order out in the lakes rather than sitting on forts farming defense ticks when they have 1.5x our numbers.

Gearing wise however Destro is currently hard-mode.

The alliance i am part of, and FMJ was the main driving force on destro... fmj was maybe 35 at peak... we started with 12 (some pugs) eventually 23-24 ... Ofc there was other pugs around who eventually came out the wood work when we get upper hand and momentum

order had FOG/RT and CNTK (drunk alts) and they had about 25-30 pug mix each

order collapse after fort and reboot and fog disband...

So it was premadeish vs semi pug+

I dont think any beavers or nge and we aint fighting ourselves...


Morale pumps dont matter that much in fort due to having to wait on BG (slowbie) to get m4 also so everything is in sync or wasted... If order had a bomb warband in fort maybe it would be different, maybe we would have to work a little harder and out rez them because 1 wb + fmj (1.5 wb) vs 1 wb ... the more organised wbs should win If pug's standby and do not support (which happens alot, too slow to react to whats going on) as soon as you bust a hole in the defence its pretty much RIP.

Order just chip away at enemy (because of heavy rdps stack) and that is main difference, they soften them up... but if you are a proper group the softening up has no effect so is meaningless unless you are a pug with no offence very bad healers and tanks, if you are a weak group it can wipe you, so of course you get demoralised and think you have no chance of winning because your group is not built or played propery... i.e no 2-2-2 with max resistances from buffs (be it chosen aura, or shaman/zealot buff) too many people run wasted tactics and slot junk talismans, I saw a chosen with sov and weapon skill talismans for example (class does spirit dmg, doesnt need armour pen so WS is wasted compared to more wounds toughness armour to be more tanky... same as some tanks slotting STR and neglecting defense, you are tank first and foremost and dps tanks are meme and melt like no tomorrow)

If you get chipped away at enough you get broken, order have successfully broken destro will by numerous defenses over and over again making it as hard for destro... hence destros defeatist attitude throughout this thread which is a joke. So when the going gets tough destro fragment and break. go to self pity excuses and blame class/realm balance instead of composition issues and L2P. Destro use to have a saying like butchers pass never falls, but with cities and destro gaining more from losing forts and winning cities they throw alot... this throwing mentality on defensive forts has come back to bite them on offensive forts because they see order bunker in... and think they cannot do the same and they has a faction only have themselves to blame. It also helps that some of order's guilds are more pug friendly and very active, destro have a over reliance on FMJ to get things done.

People probably bringing lowbie renown characters that need invader instead of their highest geared and experienced can also make significant difference if you really want a city.

Also unguarded MDPS do not contribute alot in forts, that is slight issue if they do not have support (dedicated tanks and healers) then they cannot push and are just rain of fire cannon fodder for order bw... so if not enough people are making balanced groups this effects destro more than order, so if you play a mdps on destro without grouping then can see why frustrated.

Pushed for 6 hours through 2 server resets... we had aao and was losing praag when we started and got chased by these bigger groups across rivers.

If you use your morales properly you have 25-30 seconds to make a impact and clear out a area, then help crumble other areas to ease pressure for your allies to break in... if you do not make a impact or die within 20 seconds then you got some issues that need to be worked on lol. Sarnai give good advice also.

I mean Order breaks when unseccessful too, its not an Order vs Destro thing, its just Order pugs have an easier time making Destro pugs break in Forts.

I do think a big reason for Destro losses is simply organization and player skill, 100%. The issue I have is mostly that Destro has gotten nerfed more then once due to things that were counterable but required being organized, so where do we draw the line on nerfs? If unorganized Destro has a 90% loss rate defending forts, how is that different then unorganized Order losing cities?