Return of Reckoning

Kyran wrote:In the end, it's hard to know if BG (or any other class actually) is good or not and wanted in parties or not...Because some guys say that BG is good, others that BG sucks, others are trolling, others are making private jokes, I mean how could this help us to pick a main class?

I don't want to play BG, or whatever other class and reach it to level 40, just to be kicked by every WB/6 man or whatever because my class is considered useless.

So, I don't care if it's the best tank or not, I just want to know if i'm gonna be wanted in RVR/SC/6 man etc...If not, i'm not gonna waste my time to lvl it to R40...

BG is excellent for 1v1, but so are many classes if the player is competent.
BG is very decent for smallscale of 2-4 players, but so is any other well played tank.
BG is okay for 6man, but the party would still be better off with a tank that has actual group buffs. (however most parties are okay with any tank that knows how to guardbot and thats enough)
BG won't event be invited to a real 24man warband unless they want to test out some build or lack other tanks available or unless they are drunkplaying.

My guild has like 5-7 BG players, who however never log their BGs to the actual warbands, and when we joke about logging our BGs for the warband, others joke back with kick threats. It's just garbage tier class for warband. The only good WB ability that might be wanted is Crimson Death, which however requires 2hander, which in turn means no Hold the Line, which in turn makes you not a proper warband tank (not to mention no moral pump tactic compared to blorc/chosen), and so the BG would have to take the spot designated for a real DPS, and at that point you might just realize why bring a loldps tank when you could just bring a real dps.
And whilst the BG mechanic feels "well designed", having to do a 10-15 second warmup exercise during the beginning of the fight to get to 100 Hate before you actually become useful is just blergh tier. Chosen and Blorc do not need warm up exercises. Dps classes like BW or Sorc get their warm up done before the fight begins. BG starts only warming up once the fight is already going on, and by that time it is already way too late.

There are relatively few BG abilities that scale off Hate. Many of them are abilities you never use in group anyways because they are covered by other classes (armor debuff for example) or are useful for reasons wholly divorced from their hate scaler (Crushing Anger has a scaling AP drain component but its greatest use is as a second on-deman interrupt, which requires no hate). Most of your hate scalers have to do with improving your own defenses (Anger Drives Me and Terrifying Foe for example) so that can be annoying I suppose, but with good use of Dark Protector and Enraged Beating (always use it after proccing Filled with Fury, excellent for hate generation) I feel like building hate is never an issue. It certainly doesnt take 10-15 seconds, thats an exaggeration, particularly in oRvR. Now granted, definitely outshined in warbands by other tanks. And BG has actual group buffs, as stated. I do think its single target buffs should be better than aoe buffs ( or aoe buffs should be worse, six o' one, half dozen of the other) but its not as bad for groups as you make it out to be.

Indeed, it does seem that way. I dont mind the way it is now: it feels better than IB, which lack Enraged Beating and has to slot Rising Anger to gain grudge by doing damage, and even then your damage is tied to Grudge. They do have less Grudge spenders than Black Guard has Hate spenders though. Really does seem like BG holds on to Hate to be tanky and spends it for damage, while IB holds on to Grudge to do damage and spends it to be tankier (Runic Shield, Oathbound, Grumble). Interesting way in which classes with same mechanic express it differently in game, and it makes them satisfyingly different to play while still recognizably mirrors.

So is there some abilities I can drop off my hotbars? BG has so many skills, but it feels like if I use them all, I'll just do a cycle to buff/debuff without using any damage spell.

Currently I do something like this :

Crippling Anger > Brutal Smash > Feeding on weakness > Horrific wound > Pitiless strike > Enraged Beating

Crimson Death and Furious Own on CD.

But what about Crushing anger and Crush the weak?

Kyran wrote:
But what about Crushing anger and Crush the weak?

Crushing anger is valued for its interrupt value, use it to stop channeled attacks like ether dance or long cast time healer spells

as your gamesense improves you will know when to use it

i always use crush the weak, reducing the crit chance of healers is nice, ever little bit helps

there are no real abilites that you can drop as BG, unless your 2H, in which case you can drop spiteful slam for get down, all of its abilites are situational and useful, yes its ability bloat but it comes with the class

Thanks Tenton !

Dont use horrific wound unless at 100 hate IMO. If Mara has Cutting Claw on target, never use it. Use enraged beating earlier for hate gain, preferably after casting shield of rage or pitiless strike for increased crit chance. If you have a Chosen in your party and he is using the strength or toughness auras, you can drop Brutal Smash and Feeding on Weakness. Exception being if at 100 hate, chuck DP on a healer and use Brutal Smash. Willpower is worst scaling mainstat in the game, but 300+ of it is still decent. Murderous Wrath can be decent filler as it doesnt spend hate and still procs 50% AA haste. 25% armor ignore is good too, but your biggest damage comes from AA, Enraged Beating, and Crimson Death.

Use Challenge on CD as well, as long as enemy dps are in range (i.e. dont challenge a healer, or a defensive spec snb tank. challenging 2h SM is worth it though).

GodlessCrom wrote:Dont use horrific wound unless at 100 hate IMO. If Mara has Cutting Claw on target, never use it. Use enraged beating earlier for hate gain, preferably after casting shield of rage or pitiless strike for increased crit chance. If you have a Chosen in your party and he is using the strength or toughness auras, you can drop Brutal Smash and Feeding on Weakness. Exception being if at 100 hate, chuck DP on a healer and use Brutal Smash. Willpower is worst scaling mainstat in the game, but 300+ of it is still decent. Murderous Wrath can be decent filler as it doesnt spend hate and still procs 50% AA haste. 25% armor ignore is good too, but your biggest damage comes from AA, Enraged Beating, and Crimson Death.

Use Challenge on CD as well, as long as enemy dps are in range (i.e. dont challenge a healer, or a defensive spec snb tank. challenging 2h SM is worth it though).

As i read your post I first realised how counterproductive this tree is in some way. It has an AA haste tactic but also a high damage tool like enraged beating wich disables your AAs
Also I mostly disregard EB because the damage is not that mind blowing at all. It would be a pretty nice spell if it would scale with hate.

Hm I feel like it does pretty decent damage, but perhaps I am wrong. It is certainly not Ether Dance, that's for sure If I could stomach playing a high elf, the pure damage SM throws out might tempt me away from IB/BG lol.

But yeah, it is a bit odd that two of our best sources of damage, 50% AA haste and Enraged Beating, kind of cancel each other out. Still, even with 50% AA haste, you lose only 1 or 2 AA during the channel. Would be worse if we used 1her with it, or if tanks could dual wield.

Thinking of trying a similar spec to my ib: heal debuff snare kd and parry buff. Gimme rr:(