Return of Reckoning

SH became new lion and order doesn't like it a bit. Face roll times over guys. Time to dust of your detaunts and L2Play

zulnam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm

teiloh wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:09 pm

zulnam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:30 pm Right, lets throw a glancing look at what is twisting our underwear today and compare it to other similar spells

Not So Fast! - 3s KD - 1s cast (castable while moving) - 20s CD - 65 feet - 20 AP - adds DoT - 5 point ability
Vengeful - 3s KD - 1s cast - 20s CD (10s if Vengeful) - 100 feet - 20 AP - INI debuff - 5 point ability
Stop, Drop And Roll - 3s KD - instant - 20s CD - 100 feet - 20 AP - class mechanics (extra dmg), 13 point ability

The SH has 3 Knockdowns in three forms. It has more CC than the SW and WL combined. Destro really does not need any abilities that synergize so well with its pulls.

Nope. The SH has 2 knockdowns. Pet KD was removed in the patch that reworked the range specs. Just as many as SW; more than WL with 1 (although if we count gap makers/closers/desnares it's a tie again).

But even then, it matters little since after any KD you get a 30 second buff that makes you immune, as we all know. And if you survive 30 seconds with a SH and still don't manage to kill it, maybe the problem doesn't lie with balance.

Sundowner wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:12 pm well, when discussing abilities comparing abilities of classes with different mechanics/other tools available is not a good approach. Classes don't become overtuned by having access to 1 ability that other classes have too, overtuned means having good synergy and variety of tools that can be used together. Hence saying BW/SW has it without taking into account differences between these classes is not a valid approach to balance.

There are 24 classes in this game, 72 specs. I don't look at classes mirroring classes, i look at abilities mirroring others across the two factions. This is a team game. The whole idea is for the teams as a whole to be somewhat balanced, either with mirrors or similar abilities. SH has a range knockdown not because SW has it, but because someone on destro side had to have it. It's the only one, Sorc doesn't have one. From a gameplay design it makes sense to me. Asking for it to be removed is not "avoiding mirroring abilities", it's blatant favouritism.

And I main Order.

Mara aoe kd mirror , when ?
Speaking of favouritism , plz count all the times destro got a unique order ability mirrored to them while order got nothing in return.

MMXX43 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:33 pm

zulnam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm

teiloh wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:09 pm

The SH has 3 Knockdowns in three forms. It has more CC than the SW and WL combined. Destro really does not need any abilities that synergize so well with its pulls.

Nope. The SH has 2 knockdowns. Pet KD was removed in the patch that reworked the range specs. Just as many as SW; more than WL with 1 (although if we count gap makers/closers/desnares it's a tie again).

But even then, it matters little since after any KD you get a 30 second buff that makes you immune, as we all know. And if you survive 30 seconds with a SH and still don't manage to kill it, maybe the problem doesn't lie with balance.

Sundowner wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:12 pm well, when discussing abilities comparing abilities of classes with different mechanics/other tools available is not a good approach. Classes don't become overtuned by having access to 1 ability that other classes have too, overtuned means having good synergy and variety of tools that can be used together. Hence saying BW/SW has it without taking into account differences between these classes is not a valid approach to balance.

There are 24 classes in this game, 72 specs. I don't look at classes mirroring classes, i look at abilities mirroring others across the two factions. This is a team game. The whole idea is for the teams as a whole to be somewhat balanced, either with mirrors or similar abilities. SH has a range knockdown not because SW has it, but because someone on destro side had to have it. It's the only one, Sorc doesn't have one. From a gameplay design it makes sense to me. Asking for it to be removed is not "avoiding mirroring abilities", it's blatant favouritism.

And I main Order.

Mara aoe kd mirror , when ?
Speaking of favouritism , plz count all the times destro got a unique order ability mirrored to them while order got nothing in return.

Is there any list of unique abilities copied from realm to realm?

rKD in general need to go i dont care which faction.

side note: to the morons comparing rkd to pistol whip you're seriously out of your mind.

rkd has no pre-req, it just knocks down the target for 3 sec.

Meanwhile, pistol whip requires positioning which is exacerbated by horrible netcode and lag meaning you constant get the message "you need to be behind your target" message unless you blow FP before initiating every fight. Not to mention the 5 ft range which means half the time you pop your opener only for the target to lag out of range and you cant actually kd them anymore.

Not even remotely comparable.

The only thing i agree with is that rKD in general is obscene, regardless of whether its on SH or SW. Having said that, it's even more asinine on SH given that they're obviouly the "favored class" and get a melee kd + a no pre-req disarm to go with their rkd on top of all their other cc and escape abilities which is just absurd.

zulnam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm Nope. The SH has 2 knockdowns. Pet KD was removed in the patch that reworked the range specs. Just as many as SW; more than WL with 1 (although if we count gap makers/closers/desnares it's a tie again).

But even then, it matters little since after any KD you get a 30 second buff that makes you immune, as we all know. And if you survive 30 seconds with a SH and still don't manage to kill it, maybe the problem doesn't lie with balance.

It was removed from horned squig and put on the regular squig. Gonna double check my SH later. And it helps when you're fighting multiple people.

Jinxypie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:19 pm SH became new lion and order doesn't like it a bit. Face roll times over guys. Time to dust of your detaunts and L2Play

L2P with destruction having 65% of the population last night. Still couldnt take fort tho

Kragg wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:50 am

Jinxypie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:19 pm SH became new lion and order doesn't like it a bit. Face roll times over guys. Time to dust of your detaunts and L2Play

L2P with destruction having 65% of the population last night. Still couldnt take fort tho

Yep we couldn't. Even with all those OP one button SHs. So maybe they are not so OP in the first place. And second, we don't flood the forum immediately asking for order nerf and blaming the loss on them being too strong.

For those arguing that SH is balanced lets take another look at their utility and CC:

Silence
Pounce
Disarm
Kaboom aoe knockback
Indigestion Aoe cooldown increaser
Run away speed buff ability
Run away speed buff tactic
Ranged knockback morale
Squig goo aoe slow morale
Squig Armour to convert instantly to melee
Knockdown from pet in melee
Ranged interrupt
Heal debuff with no cooldown
Ranged snare x2
Self Heal from tastes like stuntie
Outta my way non-immunity aoe knockback can be use to interrupt with %75 speed increase
Ranged knockdown

In AOE spec all they need is a Choppa or BO in party to do top level aoe damage, in Melee 1v1 they do WL level single target damage. At range there is no counter to all that, SH beats WL easily if they use just a small handful of the above abilities.

Looks really balanced to me

Like Zarbix says if Order had anything like a class which has all the above Destro would be going insane and the moans would be non stop. Yet in the patches after they made that ridiculous class they nerfed SW and WL further instead of fixing it. Madness

Jinxypie wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:14 am

Kragg wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:50 am

Jinxypie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:19 pm SH became new lion and order doesn't like it a bit. Face roll times over guys. Time to dust of your detaunts and L2Play

L2P with destruction having 65% of the population last night. Still couldnt take fort tho

Yep we couldn't. Even with all those OP one button SHs. So maybe they are not so OP in the first place. And second, we don't flood the forum immediately asking for order nerf and blaming the loss on them being too strong.

I remember quite the amount of crying over WLs when their remakes started - esp. the Guardian remake. Don't think that change was out long before Destro started asking for nerfs.

Same with the SW remake... lots of things were nerfed quite fast.

Gurf wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:52 am For those arguing that SH is balanced lets take another look at their utility and CC:

Silence
Pounce
Disarm
Kaboom aoe knockback
Indigestion Aoe cooldown increaser
Run away speed buff ability
Run away speed buff tactic
Ranged knockback morale
Squig goo aoe slow morale
Squig Armour to convert instantly to melee
Knockdown from pet in melee
Ranged interrupt
Heal debuff with no cooldown
Ranged snare x2
Self Heal from tastes like stuntie
Outta my way non-immunity aoe knockback can be use to interrupt with %75 speed increase
Ranged knockdown

In AOE spec all they need is a Choppa or BO in party to do top level aoe damage, in Melee 1v1 they do WL level single target damage. At range there is no counter to all that, SH beats WL easily if they use just a small handful of the above abilities.

Looks really balanced to me

Like Zarbix says if Order had anything like a class which has all the above Destro would be going insane and the moans would be non stop. Yet in the patches after they made that ridiculous class they nerfed SW and WL further instead of fixing it. Madness

Silence - SW has it
Pounce - SW has it
Disarm - SW has melee version ( Sh is ranged but tied on pet, bugs out, doesn't fire of ect. quite a lot)
Kaboom aoe knockback - Already nerfed and doesn't really save you from anything anymore

Indigestion Aoe cooldown increaser (on melee face and bound to that tree only reason it is there is because it is the only equivalent of Slayer on destro, would you like to pass it to Mara sure I don't mind that)
Run away speed buff ability (bound to pet and you are not able to use it unless you are close to your pet)
Run away speed buff tactic ( nerfed and useless atm. No SHs runs it anymore)
Ranged knockback morale (SW and other ranged classes also have it )
Squig goo aoe slow morale ( SW has it)
Squig Armour to convert instantly to melee ( SW has a better version of it since some of th ranged abilities are also usable for SW in that stance)
Knockdown from pet in melee ( it was removed so no KD on pet anymore)
Ranged interrupt (that was a replacement of melee interrupt that was always a SH ability even in live)
Heal debuff with no cooldown( SW has the same)
Ranged snare x2 ( delusional ? )
Self Heal from tastes like stuntie ( available only on melee tree 13th pt ability and the heal amount is laughable)
Outta my way non-immunity aoe knockback can be use to interrupt with %75 speed increase ( melee 15pt ability )
Ranged knockdown (SW has it)

What SW has as extra:
Moral 1 : cleanse and AP
Use of some of it's ranged abilities on melee face
More stat gains from its stances + it doesn't lose that stats when the pet dies
100ft on its ranged face vs SH 65ft
%50 more crit dmg on its melee abilities
%20 defence increase on its pounce
%20 crit increase tactic that is constantly on ( probably one of the best tactics in game)
A much more effectual scout tree compared to SH big shooting tree.
Increased base dmg on almost all of it's ranged abilities.
Stackable dot which ticks for 1k
Etc etc..



No, actually if a Slayer, choppa or mara is outdamaged by a SH they are simply bad on what they are doing. All it takes to neutralize MSHs in large scale is good use of interrupt and knock downs and knock backs.

A good WL is able to beat MSH ,% 70 of times.
A good WH can easily beat MSH

MSH is far from WL single dmg since they nerfed Sharp Toofz and taken away two highest single dmg ability from melee face.

Your exaggerations are far far away from reality. They are simply whinings.

Zarbix is not master of anything. He cannot even be considered as a good player considering his performance on both 1vs1 6vs6. He mainly plays solo and in that case his experience only reflects a small part of the game experience and as I have already mentioned he is not even good on that.